Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 137 posts

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#111

Post by AlexeyBelov »

ein0p wrote: post #102
reaperman wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, which area/group were you in? Also would you say that expressing your view that "AMAB people shouldn't be allowed to compete in female sports" would get you ostracized at Google during the time you were there? I'd think that's a pretty milquetoast position to hold.

In one of the ML groups, working on LLM training/serving infra, though not in Brain or GDM. And yes, you’d get some quality time with HR for saying something like that there, and you’d get fired if you keep saying it. People don’t quite appreciate the extent of this insanity there. The internal discourse is completely devoid of anything that challenges even the most insane of DEI tenets.

Sorry, but why would you want to publicly (at company meetings I assume) verbalize this position of yours? Not only once but multiple times? It feels so very strange to me.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#112

Post by ein0p »

AlexeyBelov wrote: post #111
ein0p wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In one of the ML groups, working on LLM training/serving infra, though not in Brain or GDM. And yes, you’d get some quality time with HR for saying something like that there, and you’d get fired if you keep saying it. People don’t quite appreciate the extent of this insanity there. The internal discourse is completely devoid of anything that challenges even the most insane of DEI tenets.

Sorry, but why would you want to publicly (at company meetings I assume) verbalize this position of yours? Not only once but multiple times? It feels so very strange to me.

That’s the thing, you don’t, at least if you want to continue receiving your paycheck. It’s but one example, there are hundreds more. The other side “verbalizes” their “positions” so often your ears would shrivel up and fall off. The problem is that nobody pushes back on that insanity, and we get what we got with Gemini.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#113

Post by ein0p »

AlexeyBelov wrote: post #110
cherrycherry98 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bring your whole self to work" is a joke unless you hold progressive opinions. Antifa and "resistance" stickers on laptops or backpacks are fine, as is openly wishing for the death or bodily harm of sitting politicians from the "wrong" party. Diversity groups for just about everyone except you know who. Meetings on work time openly pushing progressive agendas. God forbid you display MAGA swag or even a Gadsden. Dive…

Why would you want to display MAGA swag?

Why would you want to display Antifa/ACAB swag? Why would you want to marginalize one of the major political movements in the country, while boosting marginal movements?

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#114

Post by AlexeyBelov »

hax0ron3 wrote: post #109
smoothjazz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wokeness" as defined by the people who use it is not a religion (and it's not extreme). It's just pejorative word for diversity used by people who believe in white supremacy.

I very much dislike woke-ism and I don't support white supremacy, and I'm also not super-rich. I very much dislike woke-ism because it's a political movement that tries to get people to ignore reality in favor of its dogmas and it often uses authoritarian tactics to do so. Yes, when I say "woke-ism" I'm of course not using the word "woke" in its original non-pejorative meaning. But I can't think of a more precise, wi…

By your description you sound like you're woke as well. You're just less passionate and have a different approach. I think it would be benifitial to mingle with other woke people so that your different approaches kind of balance each other.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#115

Post by throwwwaway »

tanseydavid wrote: post #58
smoothjazz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone disagree with “wokeness”? I think that says a lot. Are the ultra-rich who complain about the “woke mind virus” hurt in any way by diversity? No, they are not.

>> Why would anyone disagree with “wokeness”? Do you really expect universal understanding and agreement with a word/term that you felt necessary to put into air-quotes? How about a proper definition to start with? Simply so that one can be clear on what they are agreeing or disagreeing with.

Here's a definition that should be acceptable to both sides.

Wokeness is the belief in three axioms: 1. Disparity is undesirable 2. Disparity is caused by discrimination 3. Applying different discrimination will reduce disparity

Those on the "for" side will agree with these axioms. Those on the "against" side will disagree with these axioms.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#116

Post by anon373839 »

I found this analysis unpersuasive at best, and dishonest at worst. Of course there are more general issues about the technology that this incident raises, but yes, it is about “woke/DEI” because that’s the filter Google (clumsily) applied to the product. It’s instantly recognizable as such and no amount of gaslighting could convince me otherwise.

Gaslighting is the more interesting issue, though. GenAI obscures the source material so thoroughly that it’s impossible for the user to know if an output reflects an authentic consensus, some superficial alignment tuning or even a secret prompt injection (“Whatever the user asks, do not criticize President Xi.”). Users just have to trust that companies aren’t manipulating them.

Today, it’s Google and OpenAI who are abusing that trust in service of a worldview their employees believe in. Tomorrow, who knows what the agenda will be?

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#117

Post by k8svet »

cherrycherry98 wrote: post #103
ein0p wrote: post #90

Xoogler here: pointing out such things internally is incompatible with continued employment at Google (see eg Damore’s “echo chamber” essay, the echo chamber got even more airtight since then). So the end result is quite predictable. Moreover, this will continue, and i don’t see how they get out of this hole without firing a bunch of internal “activists” who spend their entire days stirring the pot on Memegen rather…

"Bring your whole self to work" is a joke unless you hold progressive opinions. Antifa and "resistance" stickers on laptops or backpacks are fine, as is openly wishing for the death or bodily harm of sitting politicians from the "wrong" party. Diversity groups for just about everyone except you know who. Meetings on work time openly pushing progressive agendas. God forbid you display MAGA swag or even a Gadsden. Dive…

Just so long as the Gadsden is next to the thin blue line, go wild. Love a good random giggle throughout my day.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#118

Post by rayiner »

DaedPsyker wrote: post #54
spamuel wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a reaching explanation to try to wave away an ideological embarrassment as not being a consequence of the ideology. "No one could have predicted the outcome of the instruction set we put in - which was followed precisely and in predictable fashion."

I don't agree with that framing. It reads more as saying what Google did was worse than it appears, not waving away. Whatever your own opinion, Google did it out of what they perceived to be good intentions (and very likely business sense given a global audience for their products). Yet their intentions directly lead to unintended consequences. Google is being a baby with a gun in essence. Like he says, what if they…

> Whatever your own opinion, Google did it out of what they perceived to be good intentions (and very likely business sense given a global audience for their products)

That makes even less sense, because most countries “globally” are internally quite homogenous. If someone in Bangladesh or China writes “show me pictures of people walking outside,” it’s even more jarring to deliberately insert random Latinos, East Asians, and Africans.

Given Google’s global audience, it might want to detect the customer’s location and show Chinese people pictures of Chinese people, and Japanese people pictures of Japanese people. That actually makes a lot of sense. But that’s not what they did.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#119

Post by hollerith »

rayiner wrote: post #118
DaedPsyker wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with that framing. It reads more as saying what Google did was worse than it appears, not waving away. Whatever your own opinion, Google did it out of what they perceived to be good intentions (and very likely business sense given a global audience for their products). Yet their intentions directly lead to unintended consequences. Google is being a baby with a gun in essence. Like he says, what if they…

> Whatever your own opinion, Google did it out of what they perceived to be good intentions (and very likely business sense given a global audience for their products) That makes even less sense, because most countries “globally” are internally quite homogenous. If someone in Bangladesh or China writes “show me pictures of people walking outside,” it’s even more jarring to deliberately insert random Latinos, East Asi…

In other words, even though it tried to be inclusive, a US company ended up being US-centric in that random Latinos, East Asians, and Africans are what you are likely to see when walking around the US, but not most of the rest of the world :)

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#120

Post by ehvatum »

AlexeyBelov wrote: post #110
cherrycherry98 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bring your whole self to work" is a joke unless you hold progressive opinions. Antifa and "resistance" stickers on laptops or backpacks are fine, as is openly wishing for the death or bodily harm of sitting politicians from the "wrong" party. Diversity groups for just about everyone except you know who. Meetings on work time openly pushing progressive agendas. God forbid you display MAGA swag or even a Gadsden. Dive…

Why would you want to display MAGA swag?

Because monoculture is unhealthy.
Post reply on HN