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What if I’m wrong? (2023)

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Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#111

Post by backpackviolet »

Jensson wrote: post #71
nonrandomstring wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The odd thing is, and I think this is Socrates, that it's hard to tell. Having been won over by the gentle force of the better argument what were once not your ideas feel like your ideas. In fact, now they are your ideas, and feel like they always were.

> In fact, now they are your ideas, and feel like they always were. Some people don't remember what opinions they had in the past? Remembering all the time I was wrong and learned something new or changed my mind etc is embarrassing, not sure how you could forget all that. Like, people must remember which candidates they voted for in the past, right? So if they switch side during an election, do they really fool them…

> Like, people must remember which candidates they voted for in the past, right?

I have noticed that in myself, but I have observed in some people it takes the form of “I didn’t shift, the party did”.

They aren’t completely wrong either, political parties like the people that comprise them are constantly changing. But if you aren’t careful to avoid fooling yourself it’s not too hard to do.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#112

Post by [deleted] »

ggm wrote: post #3

I've grown used to being corrected, to the point that it's a pleasant surprise to be told I might be right. What I notice more and more, is the "you're wrong" is used to buttress opinion masquerading as fact. If you preface "I think that.." to asserts it doesn't stop the "you're wrong" but it at least puts the discussion into the realms of conjecture about things, including facts, rather than simple asserts of facts…

[deleted]

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#113

Post by knightoffaith »

Ensorceled wrote: post #97
felipefar wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the definition of Christianity. Catholicism has a long philosophical tradition discussing the existence of God, and that tradition is far from refuted.

It is literally impossible to prove that god does not exist. It is not a disprovable statement. I also can't prove Ra, Zeus, Thor, Unicorns, Ghosts, or Superman don't exist.

Well, there are some atheists that argue that God's omnibenevolence is incompatible with the evils in the world, meaning God cannot exist (or at least, is either not omnibenevolent or not omnipotent, and if these are part of the definition of God, then God insofar as the term refers to something with at least these two properties, does not exist). Theists have responses to this argument, but the point is that the subject matter is something that can be rationally discussed.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#114

Post by Vecr »

gwd wrote: post #79

I think the more important question is, "How would I know if I were wrong?" As a thinking Christian, and I've thought very carefully on what kind of evidence could be presented to me to show that Christianity was wrong; I'd be interested in what kind of evidence Dennet would accept to show him that his atheism was wrong.

I'm not sure what Daniel Dennett's current position is on action without free will, but assuming it's something reasonable, I'd consider it plausibly wrong if gassing hell and nuking heaven failed to produce the desired effect in a way that's almost impossible to fake.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#115

Post by a_wild_dandan »

atdt wrote: post #5

Wonderful piece. Dennett knows how to write. And he captures the pleasure and privilege of Hacker News with this felicitous phrase: > Distributed understanding is a real phenomenon, but you have to get yourself into a community of communicators that can effectively summon the relevant expertise.

I agree. We have an eclectic community of thoughtful laypeople and experts. That's why I remain here. It's lazy to point out warts in any community (even peer-reviewed ones!), presume that good is the enemy of perfect, and thus dismiss said community. But I think the SNR here is wonderful presently, and I appreciate you all.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#116

Post by epiccoleman »

knightoffaith wrote: post #99
epiccoleman wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be genuinely interested to hear what conclusions you came to - and I don't say that as a typical internet atheist waiting to pounce on some flaw in your logic. I've come at this from the other side many times and, though there's certainly a part of me that would like to, I just cannot find it within myself to believe that the human condition is explained in any way by Christian theology. I've found a good dea…

Why is it that you think the human condition is not explained by Christian theology? To be sure, you don't mean "I think Christianity is false", right? It can be false but still explain the human condition.

> It can be false but still explain the human condition.

Sure - and as a matter of fact, this is largely the angle I approach religion from these days - i.e. that we collected a series of parables, rules, and traditions that, when combined, lead to a "good life" (or, more cynically, provide competitive advantages to societies who adopt them in a sort of "memetic natural selection" paradigm).

But when I look at the mythology of Christianity, especially the parts of it that are mainstream and not parts of mystical or esoteric traditions, I don't find it to be a compelling enough story to base my life around (or at least, not enough to go and declare my faith in it every Sunday).

The central "myth" of Christianity is that humans are born into a state of sin and cannot reach salvation (Heaven, eternal life, or maybe more "mystically" a state of oneness with the Divine). And the myth goes on to state that God essentially allowed/caused humans to sacrifice his son to Him so that this original sin could be washed away and allow humans to be "saved."

It seems to me that this has very little explanatory power for the sorts of existential questions like "why are we here," "why are we conscious," "why is there so damn much other stuff in the universe".

As a story, there's a lot of appeal to me. Jesus as a role model, as an example of how we ought to try to be, has some good features (some bad ones too, but that's OK with me since I'm not taking the story as the literal word of God). I just don't know how people go from "this story has some nice features worth meditating on in a secular way" to "this story explains why things are the way they are and what we're supposed to do about it."

This is one of the things I find more appealing about Judaism, because there appears (to an outsider) to be much more of a tradition of grappling with faith, of trying to unpack the meaning of the "words of God" and relate them to the human condition. I'm sure there's some of that in Christian traditions too, but it was never a mainstream feature of the Catholicism that I grew up with.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#117

Post by knightoffaith »

Jensson wrote: post #106
gwd wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Unicorns exist" and "unicorns don't exist" are both factual statements of which one can have a belief. Right now you probably hold one or the other. Sure, if you'd never heard of unicorns, such a thing wouldn't enter your head; but you have heard of unicorns, and thus you do have an opinion on their existence. Similarly, if one lived all one's life in a rationalist bubble, and never even heard the mention of God or…

When you read a fantasy story you don't really think about whether it is true or not, if someone asked you then you would say it isn't true, but you never thought about it before prompted. So for me the first time I really thought about whether god existed was in internet discussions. When I learned about the religions in school it was just a bunch of cool stories and cultural things, there was no need to think wheth…

Maybe there are some people you can't ask that, but of course, many are happy to deal with the question. And indeed, historically, theists have long engaged with questions about why their religion is true.

Anyway, unlike fantasy stories, religious people are led into belief due to things like people insisting that a religion is true, arguments that suggest that God exist, and spiritual experiences. Maybe this isn't convincing to you, but it's markedly different from a fairy tale.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#118

Post by DiscourseFan »

Jensson wrote: post #96
DiscourseFan wrote: post #92

So, everyone in the world knows what a circle is, or has a basic idea of a circle: you won't find a person who doesn't recognize one, right? But, there are no circles in the world, empirically--every circle you've ever thought you've seen is actually an ellipse, even the earth itself is oblong, just like all the stars and planetary bodies. Well, would we call it a mistake if someone described what, empirically, was a…

> But, there are no circles in the world, empirically Only if you have an overly strict definition of circle. I don't think it is wrong to call the outline of a ball a circle, or the shape you do if you take an Y shaped object and rotate it along one of those branches, it isn't a perfect circle but it is still a circle.

There is only one definition of a circle, and its universal. Anything else is not a circle.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#119

Post by DiscourseFan »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #108
Jensson wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, there are no circles in the world, empirically Only if you have an overly strict definition of circle. I don't think it is wrong to call the outline of a ball a circle, or the shape you do if you take an Y shaped object and rotate it along one of those branches, it isn't a perfect circle but it is still a circle.

And crucially, lots of things like the ones you mentioned are often not better approximated by an ellipse than a circle(I realise circles are just a subset of ellipses).

>I realise circles are just a subset of ellipses

Ah, but in a circle the circumference is always equidistant to the centre, which is never true of an ellipse.

I suppose there is only one circle in the world.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#120

Post by Scubabear68 »

a_wild_dandan wrote: post #107
Scubabear68 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand. There are no physical proofs available that Christian it is right. As I say, it is all based on faith and belief. Several other religions also have long philosophical traditions that are equally plausible - or not - and for which no physical proof exists.

Mathematical proofs need no physical evidence. They're saying something similar is accepted by some Christians. That's an internally consistent viewpoint. Us skeptics simply misunderstand their irrefutable logical proof.

Math is a tool used to describe the universe, not the universe itself.

The map is not the territory.

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