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You are what you love

gspanos.tech

111–120 of 139 posts

Re: You are what you love

#111
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their only reference point is other tech workers. Maybe they should get out of their social bubble and make some blue collar friends to figure this out.

And most tech workers are doing classic "bullshit jobs" aka "dumb shit that doesn't matter". Too many of the others are doing work that is a net negative to the world. I'd be more passionate about collecting garbage bins than making kids depressed.

My blue collar friends aren't passionate about their jobs at all - it's long hours, physically unhealthy, and bad conditions/pay. But at least what they do is real and meaningful without having to craft a weird narrative for themselves about how passionate their life is making better buttons and faster queries.

Re: You are what you love

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before the modern age, most humans worked in agriculture. Really, really hard work, day in day out, no vacations, no sick days, you had to be there no matter the weather (except extreme events where your live would be endangered too much, probably). Btw this is simply not true. People worked less in agriculture than a 9-5. You’d only really be working hard at specific times of the year- harvesting, seeding, etc. Yo…

As soon as i read this a beautiful and peaceful life flashed before my eyes.

> As soon as i read this a beautiful and peaceful life flashed before my eyes.

I lived such a life on my grandparents subsistence farm in early post-communist Romania, where we only bought store made bread and nothing else for months (and even that was optional, but store made bread tasted better than homemade).

I would LOVE to go back in time to that house on a summer night, 0 light pollution, starry night, just the crickets and occasional sound of the hooves of the cows or horse against the stone pavement in their yard when they went for a drink, or the dog being happy you visit him outside when you take a piss.

Or the late evening dinner on the high porch, people across the stone-wall fence returning from the fields in their horse pulled carriages overburdened with hay. Or the strong sense of community of the people gathered at their out of the gate benches smaltalking in the evening.

Or the rain-invocation rituals that involved splashing the village virgins dressed only in leaves in their late evening procession. Or the taste of milk straight after being milked out of the cow (I don't know how I never got sick), or the taste of fresh butter, or cheese or whey cheese.

Or fetching sheep milk from the herd manager over the bouncy wire bridge, starry night, accompanied by swarms of fireflies, wind whispering through the alder leaves.

Or the cows opening the iron gate with a thud in the evening when they return with the communal herd.

Or riding the horse without a saddle because my shoeless feet hurt from walking over freshly scythed grasslands.

Or returning with my grandpa late in the night from a long trip up the mountain to his lonely uncle's house. We brought him meaty treats and he showed us the squirrels in his roof attic.

Or to hear my grandparents extraordinary survival stories or stories about supranatural occurences.

Re: You are what you love

#113

>I find it really challenging to talk with people who have completely separated their work from their emotional being. For me, work is part of life and it should be a meaningful one. I like my work too but when I hear things like this it's so hard not to cringe because of how much of a place of privilege this comes from. Most jobs are things no one would want to do if they didn't need to survive, and that's fundament…

I get your point here, but here's mine.

When push comes to shove, a bit more pay won't motivate someone as much as having a feeling about the work will.

I feel guilty because I have a passion for software development but once pushed it away because I felt it was causing me social ostracization I couldn't afford (this was long before the Web exploded and "legitimized" the software developer). While doing things that were not-software, I kept getting dropped "hints" that I was on the wrong path (there is no rational way to explain this unfortunately), so I decided to hop back in (conveniently, right when the Web was starting to take off). I've been there ever since.

My S.O. is artistic but found no way to monetize that so she now does what amounts to "admin and logistical planning work for highly-paid traders", and she hates it. She complains about it all the time, especially after every business day, and she brings much stress into our relationship as a result. I spent a while trying to encourage her to push back into creative work but it just wasn't sticking- turns out that she had an evil woman manager once who kept completely shooting down her work and I think she resolved then to never let her feelings get near work ever again. My attitude towards that situation, was I in those shoes (having grown up ostracized for what I believed in and cared about, and then later vindicated) would have been to tell that woman to EABOD and I would have tried creative work elsewhere.

I have to wonder how many people out there are just going through the motions at their jobs because of something like this. And you're absolutely right- I AM privileged... but if it was possible for this to be more common, I wouldn't be. I really wish that something like my experience would happen to everyone. Would something like UBI enable more people to find "their life's work" before they get stuck in a rut that just happens to pay the bills, I wonder? How much potential economic growth are we actually missing out on, here?

You know how when you shake a bunch of different shapes on a sieve with similarly-shaped holes, you get more falling through the sieve (i.e. finding their happier job)? And when you stop shaking, whatever shape happens to be over whatever hole is the one they rest in? What do we need to do to add more "shakeability" to the market so that more people can try more things relatively safely (financially)?

My life DOES have a lot of other drawbacks that I won't get into (which probably serve to level the overall privilege I'm experiencing), but this is not one of them.

I really do wish it on everyone.

Re: You are what you love

#114

>I find it really challenging to talk with people who have completely separated their work from their emotional being. For me, work is part of life and it should be a meaningful one. I like my work too but when I hear things like this it's so hard not to cringe because of how much of a place of privilege this comes from. Most jobs are things no one would want to do if they didn't need to survive, and that's fundament…

My thoughts exactly. Does the convenience store clerk have to love her job? The garbage person? The bus boy, dishwasher, or line cook? The assembly line worker?

There are aspects of all of our jobs that we all love and hate to varying degrees, but there is nothing weird or wrong about taking a job just because you need the money.

Re: You are what you love

#115
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aye, you put your finger on something there. Reminds me of how common it is for menial jobs to be outsourced to immigrants or seasonal labour. Fruit picking in the UK to Eastern Europeans, agricultural work in Israel to Thais, etc. Someone has to empty the bins. I guess like anything emptying bins is a job you can enjoy more or less, depending on your inner attitude to doing it, and your ability to "make the best of…

I worked as a garbage man to pay for the start of my software ventures. It was the best combination thinkable of sitting in a room on a chair behind a computer, being in the software clouds, typing away, and being outside, working out, having fun and getting enough sunlight. These both completely different things balanced each other out perfectly.

Nice. I think the key thing here is, or was, the mix: the two activities complementing each other.

Also, perhaps, the knowledge that both were temporary and meant to lead to other, or better, things.

Re: You are what you love

#116

>I find it really challenging to talk with people who have completely separated their work from their emotional being. For me, work is part of life and it should be a meaningful one. I like my work too but when I hear things like this it's so hard not to cringe because of how much of a place of privilege this comes from. Most jobs are things no one would want to do if they didn't need to survive, and that's fundament…

Does being able to do what you love, or being passionate about your work, come from a place of privilege? I'm not convinced. I know people who envy me at times, and often I think, why don't or didn't they follow a similar path? I think loving what you do comes mostly after feeling fulfilled from doing serious studying, a lot of working and quite some discipline. This love does not appear by itself. Just as in relationships, it takes continuous investment.

Re: You are what you love

#117
post #4

>I find it really challenging to talk with people who have completely separated their work from their emotional being. For me, work is part of life and it should be a meaningful one. I like my work too but when I hear things like this it's so hard not to cringe because of how much of a place of privilege this comes from. Most jobs are things no one would want to do if they didn't need to survive, and that's fundament…

Which jobs are you considering no one would want to do? I've worked labor in flooring, it's definitely not a job one wouldn't want to do without pay, but there was still an element of craftsmanship which one could find joy in

Delivery, call center, government jobs processing some applications or similar, any dirty job, any harmful job etc.

Re: You are what you love

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree and I don't understand why everyone isn't on board with this vision. Sometimes I look around and think "this can't be the end of the story, there has to be a better way to run society". What's interesting are the libertarian types who want the opposite. You don't get anything by default, you have to fight for everything. All I can think of is 1) why? and 2) is that really their vision of the future? L…

They want that future because they ultimately believe in human hierarchies. Sometimes those hierarchies are natural and essential (race, gender, age, whatever), sometimes they're contingent and constructed (skillset, grindset, 'hard work', whatever), but it always has the same end result: they think that you can categorise people like insects, and that some groups of people deserve better things than others. Naturall…

Hah, I'm right there with you. I'm definitely aware of capitalist realism, and what you said about hierarchies is exactly why I claim libertarians are right wing.

Re: You are what you love

#119
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't fixating on "privilege" a way of avoiding more troubling thoughts far beyond guilt? As if God made some people rich and some poor, and that's the way the world is. Let's all say a prayer for them? The Protestant work ethic once contained many good things like a sense of duty, efficiency, self-discipline and so on. Emancipation of others, and helping others out of poverty was always built into that! But under la…

What would be a fix for capitalism that cripples our attitude to work?

[flagged]

Re: You are what you love

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a recipe for a bad work environment. It's good to have passion and accountability in doing good work. It becomes a problem when you identify with your creations , then anything said about it can only be taken personally without an ability to detach from it and speak/think objectively.

Actual artists are a little better at this. Despite the passion they pour into their work, they understand that once it's out there in the world, it's not theirs anymore. The moment the artist lets go of it, it belongs to the viewer, who will interpret it differently through the lens of all their personal experience. And if the thing is any good, it will be heavily analyzed and critiqued, so to stay sane the artist h…

I was lucky to have learned this lesson from day one. My Atari 400 had no storage since it was beyond my budget and I wanted to save for the diskette drive rather than cassette. So I'd spend days making and playing with a single program creation, never turning it off. Eventually I'd want to do something else so click, playing Asteroids, and repeat.
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