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How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

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Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#111

Post by Arn_Thor »

pessimizer wrote: post #70
Avicebron wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think the issue isn't the research exactly, it's the motivations behind doing the research. Like, if it was determined tomorrow, with a huge article in nature or another journal that's suitably popular/prestigious that intelligence (and rewards for the sake of this thread) is totally inherited or even 80% inherited, what material changes would you want/expect to see in society in relation to that news.

As far as I can tell, the reason why science is continually trying to prove black people inferior (let's not bury the lede) is in order to put the current condition of black people in America as a result of nature and not of hundreds of years of slavery and slave breeding, and of the current condition of black people in Africa to their inferior brains instead of the violent takeovers of their countries, mass enslavem…

Thank you for the comment. Everyone else is talking around the issue but you cut right to it, and did so very cleanly.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#112

Post by Arn_Thor »

concordDance wrote: post #79
pessimizer wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, the reason why science is continually trying to prove black people inferior (let's not bury the lede) is in order to put the current condition of black people in America as a result of nature and not of hundreds of years of slavery and slave breeding, and of the current condition of black people in Africa to their inferior brains instead of the violent takeovers of their countries, mass enslavem…

[flagged]

> Wouldn't this only apply to research from the USA?

No. Lots of people from wealthy (and predominantly white) countries across the world have the same kinds of motivations.

To recognize that the existing structure of the world split between the haves and the have-nots is created only by human choices, not a natural state, is to admit to oneself: that one’s station in life is more luck than merit, that one is part of a fundamentally unfair system that one benefits from every day, and perhaps that one has a moral duty to fix it—or at least that the fix may require a dramatic change in one’s standard of living and habits and traditions.

For most people, who consider themselves inherently “good people”, that is a very tough pill to swallow. It is easier to look for other options, even to the point of some self-delusion.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#113

Post by LtWorf »

unwise-exe wrote: post #92
LtWorf wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking into? Sure! Claiming that it's already established science when it absolutely isn't however…

We know for a fact that genetics has a large influence on intelligence. We know for a fact that genetics has a large influence on personality. . We know for a fact that (at scale*) intelligence is the single largest influence on success. IIRC, we're pretty sure that (at scale*) personality is the second largest influence on success. I.e., if you measure all the possible things that might influence success and run a p…

No we don't know for a fact any of these things.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#114

Post by mjburgess »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #80
mjburgess wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, sure, if you can define some objective measures of performance that are taken to be symptomatic of intelligence and correlate those with IQ test results -- and then show test-retest validity across a wide population (etc. etc.), then you'd have a case. But all attempts to do this, i'm aware of, show in fact IQ tests don't behave this way. That all correlation with objective measures of performs, with reliable mea…

I don't understand why you're presupposing "performance" as a measure of intelligence, and what you mean by it. No one is saying that intelligence alone (above a threshold) equates to demonstrated, or even potential, life outcomes.

then your definitions are circular, "intelligence is whatever the IQ test measures, assuming it measures anything"

this is no way to establish validity or reliability. you need an independent theory of intelligence and a variety of indepenent objective measures -- otherwise the whole enterprise is circular

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#115

Post by concordDance »

Arn_Thor wrote: post #112
concordDance wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Wouldn't this only apply to research from the USA? No. Lots of people from wealthy (and predominantly white) countries across the world have the same kinds of motivations. To recognize that the existing structure of the world split between the haves and the have-nots is created only by human choices, not a natural state, is to admit to oneself: that one’s station in life is more luck than merit, that one is part of…

[flagged]

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#116

Post by samus »

almostnormal wrote: post #87
theshackleford wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal obviously, but mine made no such attempt. I was reminded constantly of our financial situation and furthermore, was normally informed through various means how it was my fault for one reason or another. Yay.

Maybe acquiring a necessity is less rewarding than acquiring something pursued for fun? The point I was trying to make is that a dollar is not a neutral reward, and may cause a different response, that might otherwise be the same in all groups for something as neutral as "points". That the response to rewards differs between poor and rich in general does't seem to be testable using a reward that both groups perceive…

Studying the different response to that reward is kinda the point of the paper though.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#117

Post by samus »

nradov wrote: post #14

These findings may be somewhat particular to just money. One pernicious part of growing up poor is that the moment a child gets a bit of money it is taken away. Parents might seize the money to help the family, or other friends and relatives might guilt them into a "loan". It would be interesting to see if the experiment is reproducible with other rewards that are more durable or harder to take away from the subjects…

Money is a very interesting reward to study though because of its paramount importance in society. With money, one can do and focus on a lot of things. Without money, life is hard. Even in countries with a welfare state, as most benefits are progressively lifted as people manage to earn more money. This reinforces the effect described in the paper!

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#118

Post by justanotherjoe »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #90
almostnormal wrote: post #30

A dollar is not a dollar. A dollar is something different for kids than it is for their parents. A dollar for a kid of rich patents is not the same as a dollar for a kid of poorer parents. Poorer parents likely try to keep worries about money as far from their kids as they can, even if not easy. Rich parents might casually discuss investment ideas at a common dinner. As a result a dollar may be seen much more as a re…

> Poorer parents likely try to keep worries about money as far from their kids as they can, even if not easy. Rich parents might casually discuss investment ideas at a common dinner Somewhat more destructively, poor parents sometimes tell their kids money isn't important. There is an entire lower-class moral stack that regards money as sinful, which is difficult to disentangle from learned helplessness.

umm... do you mean christianity? Cause that's not lower-class.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#119

Post by tptacek »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #89
Avicebron wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think the issue isn't the research exactly, it's the motivations behind doing the research. Like, if it was determined tomorrow, with a huge article in nature or another journal that's suitably popular/prestigious that intelligence (and rewards for the sake of this thread) is totally inherited or even 80% inherited, what material changes would you want/expect to see in society in relation to that news.

> if it was determined tomorrow...that intelligence (and rewards for the sake of this thread) is totally inherited or even 80% inherited IQ is 50 to 80% inherited [1]. (We can only predict about 10% of it with genetics [2].) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2017.104

For whatever it's worth, since you cited Plomin, if you Google him (or that study) you'll get a lot of interesting writing about how not-especially-useful that result turns out to be. A good shot/chaser on polygenetic behavior indicators is Shalizi's "g" writing, which is mostly about the distinction between exploratory and confirmatory data analysis, which seems pertinent.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#120

Post by JumpCrisscross »

justanotherjoe wrote: post #118
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Poorer parents likely try to keep worries about money as far from their kids as they can, even if not easy. Rich parents might casually discuss investment ideas at a common dinner Somewhat more destructively, poor parents sometimes tell their kids money isn't important. There is an entire lower-class moral stack that regards money as sinful, which is difficult to disentangle from learned helplessness.

umm... do you mean christianity? Cause that's not lower-class.

> do you mean christianity? Cause that's not lower-class

Attend services in upper-middle and high-income churches, and then in lower-middle and low-income churches. The messaging around money is different. Same when you hear parents teaching their kids.

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