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Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

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Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#111

Post by JumpCrisscross »

burlesona wrote: post #6

We spent 40 years believing that house prices were fine because the debt load didn't matter because interest rates would go down forever. Prices are based on the seller extracting the maximum ability to pay from the buyer, so payments were effectively fixed, and every drop in interest rates was perfectly offset by an increase in the purchase price. Then we hit interest zero, there was nowhere left to go. Now we're fi…

> spent 40 years believing that house prices were fine because the debt load didn't matter because interest rates would go down forever

We spent half a century engineering scarcity. Falling rates were a nice add-on. But they were never a central part of the thesis.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#112

Post by floxy »

So are high prices not an incentive for house builders to ramp up and build more houses? What is the breakdown of costs to building a new house between labor, materials, land, permits/inspections, construction loan burden, etc.? Is anyone working on tech to reduce construction costs of new houses? There are more out-there things like 3D-printing structures. But how about more conventional/mundane things. How hard would it be to have a robot that could lay asphalt shingles and staple them in place? Maybe mudding/taping sheetrock would be not-too-difficult to automate? I'm assuming the raw materials are pretty well automated at the factory (things like sheet rock, 2x4's at the saw mill, plywood, etc.)

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#113

Post by asadotzler »

skywhopper wrote: post #68
chmod600 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doubling or even tripling in ten years is not a ridiculous rate of growth.

That’s 7-10% price growth per year. How is that not ridiculous?

Bay Area housing has been increasing at about 7% per year for about 40 or 50 years.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#114

Post by jemmyw »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #74
burlesona wrote: post #6

We spent 40 years believing that house prices were fine because the debt load didn't matter because interest rates would go down forever. Prices are based on the seller extracting the maximum ability to pay from the buyer, so payments were effectively fixed, and every drop in interest rates was perfectly offset by an increase in the purchase price. Then we hit interest zero, there was nowhere left to go. Now we're fi…

> We're going to have to have a cultural shift towards housing as shelter, not investment. I've been saying this for years. Real estate investing is an absolute cancer on society. It is utterly unreal to me that people think their house should go up in value over time higher than the rate of inflation without doing any improvements. But it's not even just that, but people and corporations buying up houses for the sol…

I totally agree with this stance. Among my peer group a couple of folks own a second property they rent out and the "if we didn't where would our tenant live?" vibe is bizarre. They'd live in a house, maybe even being able to afford the one you rent to them.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#115

Post by ToucanLoucan »

ta1243 wrote: post #67
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have to start somewhere. We have people who say that we can't demolish houses as investments because it's one of the few remaining holds of generational, familial wealth left. And that's true. But we also don't have enough housing, and building more housing will naturally devalue the housing that exists. That's also true. But we can't simply let this keep going. There are people who can afford those homes: private…

> We have to start somewhere. We have people who say that we can't demolish houses as investments because it's one of the few remaining holds of generational, familial wealth left. Why would we want that? My great great grandfather was luckier than yours, and that's why I live like a king and you clean my shoes?

Because historically in the United States at least, the ability to pass down your wealth to your children has been one of few reliable ways to ensure your children aren't themselves thrown into the meat grinder of poverty. Hence why huge swaths of it are called "generational poverty:" their parents didn't have shit, and they too will not have shit.

That the privileged groups have leveraged this to keep their children from suffering the same fate is not a bad thing. No one deserves to be squeezed dry like the poor are. But the notion that we need to replace houses for these people as a way to accomplish this is not wrong, and making whatever it is be not-houses is a way to get communities that were brutalized by red-lining the ability to accomplish the same thing.

This is far above my pay grade. I just sick of the status-quo warriors endlessly citing the fact that we don't yet have a perfect solution as a reason to keep on using the broken current solution.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#116

Post by floxy »

blastro wrote: post #46
the_gastropod wrote: post #17

There's a recent Redfin analysis on this. On average, only 16% of homes were affordable for households earning a median income [1]. It's wild how broadly these affordability numbers vary, and just how much less affordable homes are today than they were just 2 years ago. Ohio must either be a very undesirable state to live in, or they're doing something right to keep house prices relatively reasonable: 3 of the top 5…

Can confirm on Ohio being a very undesirable state to live in.

Here's an interesting house:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/336-N-Bridge-St-Gettysbur...

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#117

Post by financypants »

quickslowdown wrote: post #85
dragontamer wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This past year. Interest rates went up, and then prices went up. No offset occurred, everything just became dramatically more expensive. Bam. Theory already busted.

Seems like financypants lives in a beautiful world where corporations aren't greedy shitbags engaged in price gouging

I’m not really addressing greedy corporation shitbags. I’m talking about the relationship between rates and prices. If you need someone to vent to about shitbag greedy corporations, go elsewhere. (I’m not disagreeing that corps are shitty greedy horrible inhuman profit machines)

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#118

Post by financypants »

jemmyw wrote: post #114
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're going to have to have a cultural shift towards housing as shelter, not investment. I've been saying this for years. Real estate investing is an absolute cancer on society. It is utterly unreal to me that people think their house should go up in value over time higher than the rate of inflation without doing any improvements. But it's not even just that, but people and corporations buying up houses for the sol…

I totally agree with this stance. Among my peer group a couple of folks own a second property they rent out and the "if we didn't where would our tenant live?" vibe is bizarre. They'd live in a house, maybe even being able to afford the one you rent to them.

Is this landlord savior complex common? I’ve never come across it. It’s a silly perspective even at face value.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#119

Post by earthling8118 »

dragontamer wrote: post #78
hotpotamus wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they care more about their daughter finding a house, and they have 3, then why don't they give her one?

Houses that are good for wealthy retired people are not so good for young couples raising children. In particular, the school systems that are around such homes. Location, Location, Location. Secondly: those houses have tenants. They're not sitting empty. Thirdly, for the young couple. Being tied to your parents financially basically makes them a slave-owner of you. When the parents drop by or use the yard to store p…

The houses have tenants, so they can't use them for their children? It sounds like they prioritize the income stream over their child finding a home. Yeah, it isn't fun for the people who need to relocate but that isn't some impossible hurdle.

Re: Americans don't believe middle class can afford homes

#120

Post by earthling8118 »

jemmyw wrote: post #114
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're going to have to have a cultural shift towards housing as shelter, not investment. I've been saying this for years. Real estate investing is an absolute cancer on society. It is utterly unreal to me that people think their house should go up in value over time higher than the rate of inflation without doing any improvements. But it's not even just that, but people and corporations buying up houses for the sol…

I totally agree with this stance. Among my peer group a couple of folks own a second property they rent out and the "if we didn't where would our tenant live?" vibe is bizarre. They'd live in a house, maybe even being able to afford the one you rent to them.

Yeah that absolutely makes no sense. As a tenant, I live in this house, it is mine no matter what paper you have that says you own it. You didn't provide it for me from the graciousness of your heart but rather from a pit of greed that gatekeeps me from doing what I see fit with it.
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