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A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

caseyhandmer.wordpress.com

111–120 of 161 posts

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#111

We desperately need to focus on conservation efforts instead of attempting to engineer "solutions" that only end up encouraging further consumption. Hot take: Maybe the American SouthWest wasn't meant to support > 1/3 of America's agricultural output. Solar desalination of the Salton traps humanity in an energy contract when we could achieve meaningful conservation efforts instantaneously by banning the production of…

> We desperately need to focus on conservation efforts instead of attempting to engineer "solutions" that only end up encouraging further consumption.

"We desperately need to find ways to massively change human nature, rather than using our vast combined expertise to engineer solutions that let human nature work for us rather than against us."

Any solution to a systemic problem that can be articulated as "If people would just..." is doomed to fail. People will not just. People will continue finding ways to convert resources into better lives—for better and for worse.

Posting on articles like this saying "No! We can't keep finding ways to make consumption not harm the ecosystem! We have to force people to live austere, monk-like lifestyles! Only that will truly save us all!"

Like, I'm as frustrated by the idiocy of growing almonds in California as the next guy, but if this solution will actually work the way it claims to, then we may not need to worry about that anymore. And furthermore, it would mean significant improvements for various other parts of the world currently reliant on transporting enormous quantities of fresh water long distances to coastal areas.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#112
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Well yes, that too. A mix of both, not sure of the percentages. Frankly I wish there were a better place for the hackers to congregate without the capitalists. But whatever, at least the discussion here is civil and interesting. Best place I've found since Slashdot of old.

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Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#113

> The solar panels convert wasted sunlight into electricity, one of the most useful forms of energy, at the lowest cost ever in human history. The batteries make this power available at night, enabling 100% utilization of the higher capex systems downstream. The RO desal plant uses this power to strip salt out of fresh water I wonder if you could store the energy as pressure instead of electricity in batteries. From…

A fundamental challenge with storing pressure is that water is essentially incompressible. This means that you can’t build a 1000 gallon tank and store any useful amount of energy in the form of pressurized water in that tank.

Mathematically, it’s easy to forget that the PV term in enthalpy is a mathematical trick, not a physical thing, and that it mostly does a nice job explaining physical things when P = atmospheric pressure.

If you want to store, say, 100psi water, the energy you care about is P times delta V, so you need some thing that can change its volume easily, cheaply, and reversibly while under pressure. As a practical matter, this means compressed air or maybe springs. So that water “pressure tank” is actually an air pressure tank that happens to have some water in it too.

There’s nothing wrong with storing pressurized air, except that it’s a heck of a lot more dangerous than storing pressurized water due to the fact that it really does have energy stored in it. (There’s a reason that a PVC pipe filled with 80psi water is a common thing in houses and the main danger is that water escapes if it breaks. A pipe full of 80 psi air is quite hazardous.) There are startups that have played with compressed air energy storage. The resulting gizmos are large.

I would expect a RO plant that is optimized for intermittent use without any energy storage at all to end up being a viable alternative to energy storage, but maybe batteries will end up being cheap enough that this isn’t worthwhile.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#114

The details might be a bit goofy, but this sort of large scale geoengineering project is going to be the only way that the SW is going to remain inhabitable. The American southwest has a couple big things going for it -- unlimited sunshine and an extraordinary amount of empty land. You can combine these things to create huge amounts of electricity which can be used to irrigate new farm land, power mines and build new…

Habitable? There is plenty of water for it to be habitable, residential use is a drop in the bucket compared with agricultural use. Without a technological solution, we'll have to scale back agriculture, but that's not a regional problem, since the market for food is an international one.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#115
post #113

> The solar panels convert wasted sunlight into electricity, one of the most useful forms of energy, at the lowest cost ever in human history. The batteries make this power available at night, enabling 100% utilization of the higher capex systems downstream. The RO desal plant uses this power to strip salt out of fresh water I wonder if you could store the energy as pressure instead of electricity in batteries. From…

A fundamental challenge with storing pressure is that water is essentially incompressible. This means that you can’t build a 1000 gallon tank and store any useful amount of energy in the form of pressurized water in that tank. Mathematically, it’s easy to forget that the PV term in enthalpy is a mathematical trick, not a physical thing, and that it mostly does a nice job explaining physical things when P = atmospheri…

Batteries have proven extremely resistant to the scaling of solar panels. I would love to be wrong about this, but overwhelmingly people with an agenda just kind of hand-wave past grid scale energy storage problems that we have generations of evidence against being easily or cheaply solvable.

The thing about this plan that I love though, is that who cares if the desal plant runs at night? Desalination can take all of the power you can feed it and then some, and if it shuts off after sundown, who cares? Stop filling your freshwater reservoir until morning, at which point you just run flat out all over again.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#116
post #24

Wow, what a fantastic post! The author, who holds a PhD from Caltech, proposes taking advantage of the decreasing cost of solar power to enable a new age of clean water abundance in California, sustainably, with the potential for massive revenues and profits at all steps in the value chain. Even if the author's calculations are off by a factor of two, the proposal looks like it could work. At a minimum, it merits ser…

Skepticism is warranted. The track record of "Oh, we don't have to change our incredibly wasteful and unsustainable ways after all, technology will fix things!" has been... poor.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dump the brine water in engineered desert fields where it will evaporate and deposit salt reserves. Honestly, the Salton Sea would be a great place to dump the brine. It would keep the water levels up and reduce the respiratory issues caused by drying, and any ecosystem to be destroyed has been thoroughly destroyed for decades. Nix the "turn the manmade salt lake to a manmade fresh lake" plan, and use the created f…

This is something I still don't understand about the original plan: Where is the Salton Sea expected to get more water from on an ongoing basis? If you keep extracting from it and not refilling it, it's just going to keep getting smaller and saltier. Agriculture isn't going to put back out as much as it takes in (the plants need it, after all). Sure, you can drag it out a few more years with desal, but eventually it'…

AFAICT, water is pumped from both the Sea of Cortez & the Salton Sea to a desal plant. The fresh water is used for irrigation etc, and the runoff from primary use replenishes the Salton.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#119

A solution is there if we had the will to implement it: https://www.osti.gov/biblio/963122 Take excess water from SE floods and pump it west opportunistically using excess renewables. Bonus because you can use the pumped water as gravity storage. Yes, it is not cheap, energetically, to pump water. Yes, you have to cross a big mountain range(which increases opportunities for gravity storage). For some reason, this sug…

That report is mainly about the upper Mississipi (Midwest) not the lower, or points east (Southeast).

And it is only supposed to run during large scale flood events, which the report cites as lasting ~80 days, worst case? Looking at flood event frequency, this report cites: 1912, 1913, 1927, 1937, 1965, 1973, 1982, 1993, and 2008.

So, let's be generous and double the event length to 160 days and double the event frequency to ~20 per century (increasing, to be sure). That's a time utilization of the infrastructure of ~9%, if Ima doing the math right.

It is apparently true: water runs uphill toward money. In this case, literally multiple miles of vertical elevation gain to get it to the Navajo Nation.

I mean I could see maybe pumping to Denver, or maybe over the continental divide past Denver, but... direct to almost the NM, AZ border?

Maybe just start with baby steps and for instance charge those good enterprising folk who farm alfalfa with nearly free water in the AZ desert and ship it to Saudi Arabia.

Re: A vision for the alleviation of water scarcity in the US Southwest

#120
post #5

Apart from whether the economics make sense brine disposal from desalinization is a big issue. Waste with high salt concentrations can wipe out marine life - it would be nice if this piece took the issue a little more seriously. It's a continuing problem in the Canary Islands which are dependent on desalinization plants: "Rejected brine is a serious threat to marine ecosystems, causing negative effects on both flora…

Is there a way to know how much to care? We do all sorts of things that displace species, so having some way of contextualizing and weighting the harm against the benefit would be helpful.

The Canaries have 32% of the economy based on tourism, and a good chunk of that depends on the local ecology (scuba, nice beaches, etc.)

If you want to see what a tourism place looks like when you destroy its ecology, you only need look at the abandoned areas around the Salton Sea.

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