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We need technology that is less immersive, not more

filiph.net

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Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#111
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody disputes that entertainment has value. The article is about the fact that so much talent and resources is funneled into immersion. Using your neurosurgeon example, I posit that having fewer VR headsets will not prevent the doctor from unwinding. Nor will having mobile phones with less vibrant colors or application with lower engagement metrics.

There is a tragic flaw in your logic. There’s probably 10x engineers working on advertising then there is gaming (let alone VR). It’s not that big of an industry and doesn’t have the mass adoption attention destroying ad-driven social media does. Statistically, the neurosurgeon is unwinding on TikTok and hating themselves for it. Could VR become immersive and an ad-addled attention destroying mess? Yes we should prob…

> But otherwise this warning is too early.

When would the right time have been to warn people about the current generation of social media?

We now have a ton of information about how technology will be used and abused, and we have a laundry list of known problems that we have not solved. Algorithmic social media and engagement-driven content are front and center.

To me, the warning is appropriate not based on what hasn't happened yet, but based on what already has.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#112
post #5

I don’t think making less immersive games is some how more important than more immersive ones. The more important problems aren’t gated by lack of talent but lack of money and or political will. Throwing talent at it (if you could) doesn’t magically add money or political will to solve them.

Μoney and political will comes from interest. And talent goes where the interest is too.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#113
post #19
post #5

I don’t think making less immersive games is some how more important than more immersive ones. The more important problems aren’t gated by lack of talent but lack of money and or political will. Throwing talent at it (if you could) doesn’t magically add money or political will to solve them.

I agree that it's not just about talent. That said, having more talented people interested in a field often has the effect of bringing money and political will.

Hah, wrote my comment directly after reading the parent and then read yours, which says basically the exact same thing!

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#114
post #15

While sitting with my iPad typing the other morning, something about the experience struck me in a way that it never had before. I've been typing since the early 90s, and can type around 120WPM without looking or thinking about it, and it hit me that in a very real sense, the iPad (and other computing devices) are already an extension of me. I've invested the time to integrate this hardware into my brain via the keyb…

One day I want to expand on the idea that our digital avatars, our images and representations of ourselves, become an extension of our own self-concept, in the same way our keyboard becomes an extension of our hands and our body. Our social media profiles, our timelines, photos, and digital content, become part of our selves, and we begin to identify with these time capsules we've created of ourselves, to the point where we _are_ the person in the photo, we _are_ that person on Facebook.

It's a fundamentally backwards-facing view of the self that relies on historical or past depictions of an individual in order to define their current self-concept. It implies an immutability, a static, unchanging quality to the person, since after all - there "you" are, or at least all your photos and your memorabilia, your self-depictions and simulacra, committed to and preserved in the permanent record of the cloud. It's also one that emphasizes the importance of external markers and signals of identity - only those that can be extraverted - to the detriment of the inner life of the psyche, the private life of the mind which is not so readily available for examination or expression.

This way of looking of ourselves through a digital black mirror continues to uphold the illusion of permanence; our self is like a river, and we never step in the same one twice - unless we freeze the river (in time) and post it to Instagram.

Not to mention all the vanity and superficiality of Photoshop, filters, r/instagramreality, etc etc... points which have all been discussed ad nauseam.

Moreover there is the slow death of the literary personality - of one who, in times where media and bandwidth were not of sufficient capacity to generate and retain all these audiovisual representations of our selves, was primarily known through their words and their writing. This is a fundamentally different way of trying to understand one's character that requires much more participation on the audience's behalf to fill in the gaps - the gaps that can't be immediately filled in with high definition video. It becomes harder for one to be identified through their words, and more and more preferable to identify someone by what they look or sound like; another step in the long, slow march away from literacy and to other forms of information exchange.

In this regard I'm reminded of David Foster Wallace uncut television interview [0], which I found incredibly fascinating - here was one of the most articulate men in society, celebrated for his literary works, appearing awkwardly and shyly on camera, sometimes meandering off on tangents in the discussion, sometimes "pontificating" on the interviewer's questions - how does DFW's audiovisual representation compare to his literary output?

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGLzWdT7vGc

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#115
post #54
post #20

What if I tell you everything around us is actually technology, we just dont understand it enough so we call it natural?

What if I tell you everything around us is actually magic, we just understand some of it well enough to call it technology?

Same thing. A lot of stuff we don’t understand is like magic. Think old days, show someone an AR head set and they’d think is magic. Look closely at DNA, it’s marvel of technology but miniaturized but occurs naturally. None the less looks and acts like advanced tech

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#116
Reminds me of:

> A very common practice in videogames is to make your game visually immersive—that is to say, to visually portray the game’s elements in such a way that makes the player, to some extent, feel like they’re “really there.” The most obvious way this is employed is via a firstperson point-of-view camera, as seen in titles like Counter-Strike or Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. In these titles—especially in the highly fantasy-simulation-dependent Skyrim—part of the idea is to “immerse” the player in the world.

> The problem is, this isn’t where “immersion” really comes from. Ever notice how people get incredibly immersed in a great novel? What could be further away from the literal, realistic portrayal of reality that Skyrim brings than a set of glyphs in black and white printed on dead trees? And yet novels routinely engage people to the point where they are completely and utterly immersed.

> The myth is that immersion comes from visual/auditory messages, but the problem is the human mind wanders quickly. We’re curious and inquisitive and while a picture-perfect image might in fact immerse us for a moment, if there isn’t an engaging system there for us to keep us immersed, we’ll quickly snap out of it and remember that we’re just tinkering with some computer program.

> The thing that engages people in interactive systems is actually quality interaction—for games, this means interesting, difficult and meaningful decisions as frequently as possible.

Quote from Keith Burgun's "Clockwork Game Design"

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a tragic flaw in your logic. There’s probably 10x engineers working on advertising then there is gaming (let alone VR). It’s not that big of an industry and doesn’t have the mass adoption attention destroying ad-driven social media does. Statistically, the neurosurgeon is unwinding on TikTok and hating themselves for it. Could VR become immersive and an ad-addled attention destroying mess? Yes we should prob…

> But otherwise this warning is too early. When would the right time have been to warn people about the current generation of social media? We now have a ton of information about how technology will be used and abused, and we have a laundry list of known problems that we have not solved. Algorithmic social media and engagement-driven content are front and center. To me, the warning is appropriate not based on what ha…

The warnings started appropriately early in 2011, there should’ve been regulations in place by 2015.

VR is still in 2006.

Maybe let the first ad run in VR before you ascribe all the same problems to it.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#118

I have a different take than the author. I don't have an issue at all with directed activities being deeply immersive - games most specifically. That is, I like the idea of putting on a headset for a half hour and playing a game, then doing something else. What I think is much more destructive is when "immersion" just looks like "constant distraction", i.e. the idea that we'll wear these immersive devices all the tim…

There are a few (TNG and Voyager for sure, maybe DS9 too) Star Trek stories that deal a bit with holodeck addiction ("holo-addiction"), and I think something at that level of immersion would absolutely cause lots of people to completely withdraw from society, especially if (real world) society is bleak (Ready Player One deals with this aspect of it). I already know 30-something childless adults who spend effectively…

[deleted]

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#119
Browsing the public library one day in the aughts, I came across Edgar Rice Burroughs, Tarzan. Having been raised on the Disney version of Tarzan, I thought, "Ho! I should read this here original of the classic children's story!" So I checked it out, and I was shocked and surprised to encounter the most racist novel I have ever read. There is a reason almost no one reads the original Tarzan. It is not subtle about being Jim Crow, pro-colonialism pulp porn. I'm pretty sure Disney would prefer everybody forget that Burroughs existed, and that their animated and live action mega hits sprung out of the focus group imagining of a childhood bear necessities Jungle dream. So yeah, Burroughs is a rough reference to lead with.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ads have existed long before clicks on and the most talented artists have worked on them long before the most talented programmers thought about making people click on them.

The unsaid context of the quote is that programming is among the most lucrative fields (top 3 large employment fields), and most of the money is programming field comes from ads, which is why the best programmers are working on ads. Artists at ad agencies probably never broke even top twenty jobs by salary.

Is that true though? Are most people working at Google working on Ad tech, or on the services that the ad tech helps pay for?

Now, to be clear, I don't consider GMail "ad tech", even though it is ad supported. I don't see anything wrong with someone like Google want to drive traffic through services that are monetized through advertising. Nor Facebook for that matter.

I will complain about lock in, dark patterns, and other nefarious things. But you can have good ad supported services without necessarily having all of the bad things. Those just bump your margin and revenue.

So, if you feel that the "good" programmers are working on ad tech and analysis, while the "less good" are working on, say, GMail proper, I'd be curious in how that conclusion was drawn.

How many people here work on ad tech directly? (vs, some dual use technology that can be used for ad tech.)

I know a lot of people, tangentially, indirectly, "6 degrees of separation" kind of thing, and I don't know any of them being directly involved in ad tech. None of the "lead geeks" I'm familiar with are in the field.

The closest it got was a friend of mine who worked on Farmville in its heyday, and that's more a dark pattern addiction game than ad tech.

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