"That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends." • Hacker News Board

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#111

Post by chops » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:02 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #68

I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry. In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of ho…

"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist." -Ayn Rand

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#112

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:03 PM UTC

roguecoder wrote: post #33

aculver wrote: post #7

The author's observation about high school is exactly why my kids, by default, will be home schooled. If they decide they want to go to public or private school at some point, I'll let them. Unlike a lot of kids that end up getting bullied, they'll know that their attendance is completely optional. I'm not looking to shelter them from the real world, only the fake miniature society that exists at school.

It doesn't necessarily help. I speak from experience: I was homeschooled and it was terrible. I didn't learn the 101 little tricks to make interacting with frustrating people that little bit easier, I didn't learn to empathize with people less smart than me and I didn't develop the social intelligence that I believe is vital for long-term success. Any time I had to interact with anyone I felt terrible and awkward and…

[deleted]

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#113

Post by frederico » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:04 PM UTC

outstanding article; things ring so so true. Highschool is such a rough time with getting people singled out, and it's hard for those who are individuals.

Kudos to this guy for an outstanding talk to this kid; inspires hopefully many of us to share our experiences and reach out to younger kids we see.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#114

Post by possibilistic » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:05 PM UTC

aculver wrote: post #7

The author's observation about high school is exactly why my kids, by default, will be home schooled. If they decide they want to go to public or private school at some point, I'll let them. Unlike a lot of kids that end up getting bullied, they'll know that their attendance is completely optional. I'm not looking to shelter them from the real world, only the fake miniature society that exists at school.

Take the negative feedback you're getting with a grain of salt. All anecdotal evidence will support different claims; it simply comes down to planning.

I was homeschooled from the 7th grade, and from what I can tell I'm better off. I was able to focus on my own educational interests--computing and science. I launched a series of small, but cashflow positive websites. I studied Japanese through a free program by GPB for two years (another two via distance learning at University of Alabama) and ultimately found my way into teaching English in Obihiro / Tokatchi for half a year before I started college. I now find myself with a bunch of really great friends and colleagues; I've lived, loved, made mistakes and wonderful experiences. And I'm pretty sure your kids will too.

I'm sorry for brevity, but my phone sucks. If you want to discuss homeschooling topics and strategies at length, feel free to email me.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#115

Post by celer » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:14 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #68

I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry. In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of ho…

I don't personally see a problem with adopting certain clothing styles, mannerisms, or interests to fit in with a certain group. I think most people spend far to much time and energy on fitting in to a specific group, but the primary benefit of clothing is signalling. If wearing one type of jacket over another lets me meet more people I want to spend time with, and I don't care all that much about jacket choices, then I don't see any sort of problem with wearing that type of jacket. Being perceived as weird relative to the norms of a desired group tends to be a disadvantage, and I certainly don't praise it. Think what you will, act as you know is right, but when dealing with others be willing to go along with otherwise undesirable behaviors. Why do you disagree?

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#116

Post by dclowd9901 » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:15 PM UTC

endersshadow wrote: post #107

dclowd9901 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does every post on here need someone coming in explaining how it's wrong in some way. It's not only disingenuous, but outright wrong to assume the author was saying "be weird for the sake of being weird." He's saying he is weird, and that's OK, just he won't see a lot of good in it in high school. You're acting like he's advocating becoming a hipster, a straw man you invented.

Did you come in looking for a fight? Daniel clearly stated that he thought the argument was a good one, but it's too easy to take the extreme from the headline (or miss the point of the essay entirely), and say that being "weird" is good in and of itself. It's not, clearly. What he's saying is, find your passion and damn the social torpedoes, because it'll all work out in the end. Daniel's point was that being "weird…

"But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry."

"But there's nothing to be gained in being different in itself."

The essay needed no cautionary caveat, and that's what Daniel purported it was missing. I posit it was missing nothing at all, and that only the most hopelessly pedantic interpretation of it would call for an explanation of exception.

So, no, not looking for for a fight, just a little tired the "making a point for the sake of making a point."

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#117

Post by rralian » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:18 PM UTC

Yep, I was one of the brainiacs, socially awkward... not necessarily alone. More in the "activities" clique, which was by no means cool. I'm still pretty awkward, honestly. I'm either the life of the party or climbing the walls trying to get away from people. I have no middle ground.

Anyway, while I totally understand supporting this kid and letting him know there's nothing wrong with him, I'm not so sure it's healthy to feed the "us vs them" (or "me vs them") mindset either. Though I totally understand it. Yes, everyone is an idiot in high school. Even him. The "cool" kids aren't necessarily giving up their identity just to fit in. Maybe they just like the same things. But honestly they're probably not all that happy either. Everyone is miserable, and they're all pretty much idiots. I mean, you're in high school.

I think the important thing is to help build confidence (and importantly not arrogance, which is just a defense mechanism) in these kids. Find something they love to do and support them. Confidence is really the most attractive trait. Outside of just being super-hot, that is. :-)

My son is five years old now, and I can already see his social skills following his daddy's footsteps. I see the other kids talk to him when I drop him off for school, and he'll just ignore them and stand off by himself. It's not them or anything they're doing, it's his mindset. I would desperately like to help him avoid the some of the mistakes I made. I think I'm actually pretty hard on him because of this. And then I feel pretty awful myself.

Anyway, sorry for the verbose meandering comment... I've just been thinking through this stuff myself, so it's useful to write it out.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#118

Post by saulrh » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:19 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #68

I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry. In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of ho…

  In school people clan and desperately look for some
  identity to copy.

This struck me. The most intelligent and self-aware of my friends seem to have consciously chosen some person or character to copy in high school or middle school. Perhaps this is a clever way to satisfy the urge while still being self-defined. I emulated the classic mad scientist archetype, for example, and it'd led me to reasonable success. I also suspect that practices such as spirit animals, guardian angels, and the whole positive-affirmations thing are related to this; to a first approximation, these advise that a person create an external target and attempt to emulate that target, and could have evolved as another way to sneak some self-definition through the copying.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#119

Post by aidenn0 » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:26 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #72

abraxasz wrote: post #60

I like the article, a lot. But I have some reserve with the advice given. In my experience, many people would actually be glad to hangout with someone weird if he gives them some time to get used to it, and take it easy on the weirdness at first. I consider myself weird (my weirdness is that I mostly don't give a shit about conventional thinking and politically correct things. I just love a good argument, to the poin…

I'm with you right up to that part about not homeschooling your kids (homeschool dad here). But I'll let it go since I think you may just be trying to provoke an argument. :) (Unless you've homeschooled, I don't think you have any idea how much social interaction homeschool kids can get; we don't just sit at home all day.) Edit: I see comments below on homeschooling and from homeschoolers. Our kids get a ton of socia…

I went to a well respected magnet school for high school, so we had a lot of HS freshmen that were previously home-schooled. Then I majored in Physics in college, so we had a lot of college freshmen that were previously home-schooled.

I came to the conclusion that while there is a strong correlation between home-schooled kids and poor socialization, it's almost certainly not as causal as most people assume. All the "really weird kids" that were homeschooled had equally weird parents, so there is a good likelyhood they would have had issues even being in public school.

That being said, it did seem clear (and obvious in retrospect) that what homeschooling does is allow the parents to have a much larger influence on their kids up to an older age. The typical late-elementry aged kid will have picked up a lot of behavior and habits from their peers, wheras the homeschooled kid of similar age will have done so to a much lesser extent. However, that influence seems to expire aproximately 4-8 weeks after the kid leaves the homeschool environment so I don't think it's a big deal in the long-term

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#120

Post by evincarofautumn » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:31 PM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #110

evincarofautumn wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes. I did find the comment in extremely poor taste, but I also don’t pretend to have enough information to assess it further. Nothing to do but suspend judgement and give a measured response.

Well, if a gay friend of mine doesn't mind "even the gay gets laid more than me", it still doesn't mean I'll go around saying it in public or online, I don't have the relationship I have with my friend with everyone. Anyway, I was just checking to see if that was a generally accepted statement just because the word "furry" was there rather than something else, or if I was missing something.

Oh, undoubtedly. Even online, the vast majority of people don’t know or understand internet subcultures nearly as well as general issues of sexuality. It’s unrealistic to expect otherwise.

I take more good-natured flak from my friends for identifying as a furry than for being bisexual. This without even associating with roleplay, pornography, fursuiting, conventions, Otherkin, or any of the “sub-subcultures” that get attention for their peculiarities. I just think anthropomorphic animal characters are pretty swell.