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The life and death of open source companies

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Re: The life and death of open source companies

#111
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building a company inherently carries a risk of failure with it. You seem to be taking it the wrong way, you really shouldn't be building your company based on a few opinions of HN comments, nor it's their responsibility to outline the full extent of risks involved.

You're right that it's no one on HN's responsibility to outline the full risks of starting a business, but no one is claiming otherwise. Presumably jraph's goal in writing their comment is to convince us that starting an Open Source company is a good idea -- but they haven't succeeded, for the reasons mentioned. If they want to convince more people, then they should come up with counterarguments to the top level post…

> but they haven't succeeded, for the reasons mentioned

No, I haven't succeeded because I haven't tried yet. However, I am surrounded by open source companies that succeeded.

The comment I responded to obviously reasons theoretically, and confuses some things. I will answer two aspects of it:

> Open Source makes "competing" with an existing company trivial, but with none of the invested costs. So the first mover, the program author, is always at a strategic disadvantage

That's not true. You can't just take some open source program developed by someone else and make money out of it. Let's say I develop open source product P. I offer support and consulting. Let's say you want to compete with me on P. You initially lack the expertise and the notoriety. If Alice and Bob want to get support or consulting for product P, they'd better turn to P experts, which is the company that builds P, me. For you to get customers, you need to prove the world that you are an expert. It takes spending time with the code, and also on marketing. But while you are spending time on this, I am too. You will also fatally need to contribute improvements to the product you are selling to make your customers happy. Actually, if you start contributing, it's a win for both of us and our companies can even be friends.

I'm not making this up. That's actually where I work.

> This is not an accident- it is baked into the very point of open source

So we just countered this. I'm not saying there's no risk. but that's not "by construction".

> There's a reason that very few people in the bazaar actually make decent money. There's a reason the cathedral has treasures.

And now we are confusing development methods, not "open source vs not open source". You don't need to be organized in "bazaar" to build free software. Look how, for instance, SQLite, as open as you could dream, manages very well with their non contribution policy. They are profitable. They have a "first mover advantage".

> These are two pretty distinct concepts, and the (traditional) motives for those two things don't merge terribly well.

Well, they can.

But my biggest argument is that you don't need to believe me. Many "actually open source" companies have succeeded. So, what gives?

I don't need to actually build an open source company to prove my point. Others have been doing well. Maybe me in the future, that's not completely excluded. Thing is, being employed also has advantages.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#112
post #62

It's funny how they lied about being open source twice and got the exact same reaction from it both times, but still haven't learnt their lesson. All they need to do to avoid backlash is call it source available (like it is) but instead they chose to mislead people for no real benefit to themselves.

It’s very clear they seek the goodwill and engagement associated with open source projects without the costs.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#113
post #37
post #6

I feel like the problem is defined in the title. Open Source. Company. These are two pretty distinct concepts, and the (traditional) motives for those two things don't merge terribly well. Over and over we see the same story playing out. Companies need to make revenues to sustain the employees. Open Source makes "competing" with an existing company trivial, but with none of the invested costs. So the first mover, the…

> My recommendation is this - decide if you want to make a company, or if you want to make Open Source. The number if places that have succeeded in both is vanishingly small. I would suggest the contrary: if you want to build a company and believe open source is the right way to do it, please do try! We don't have enough open source companies, we need more successful examples of this. It's hard and there are traps on…

There are four business models that I believe are sustainable for open source development.

1. Solo developer (or small group), funded via e.g. Patreon

2. Non-profit funded by sponsorships and donations

3. For-profit but the software is free; the company charges for support and/or cloud services

4. Open collective, where donations fund bounties that are paid out to people who contribute patches

In other words, I think the only models that can really work are models where you genuinely don't care about other companies taking your code and using it for their own purposes. (This shouldn't be surprising - that's literally the whole point of open source!)

When I see companies trying something other than these four business models (usually because they desire more money than being a non-profit can offer) I inevitably see companies that might as well just not be open-source companies, because their licensing has to be restrictive for them to compete.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If google’s search is nothing special, why are all other search engines worse, including yours?

I agree with you but at the same time I can see why you were downvoted. No need to be so rude. But I feel that it's incorrect to dismiss Google as being a bad search engine. DDG and Brave both provide !bangs for google and many other search engines that a significant part of their userbase use regularly. I myself use google often when I'm searching for something extremely specific, something that Google may give me 2…

[deleted]

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#115

The Open Source is about freedom for users not about making life easy for developers or the Company. Open Source is not for everyone and many those crying how horrible Open Source is simply should not gone with Open Source to begin with :)

Why should someone start developing open source if there is no way to make a living from it long term ? Should we just expect OSS devs to work for free (or scraps via sponsors/kofi)? I guess there are a lot selfless individuals who would still use a significant portion of their lifetime to build OSS. But what about software that needs significant effort to build and constant updates? I find your view very cynical and…

> Why should someone start developing open source if there is no way to make a living from it long term ?

If you cannot answer this question for yourself you definitely should not start or participate in an open source project. Is there someone saying you should? GP isn’t.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#116
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's what these businesses are doing: raising labour funds for free to fund a profitable product. That's not the spirit and the purpose of Open Source. You are misguided. Here's what the company that employs me does: - develop an open source product. Open to contributions, but most of the dev is done by employees. - sell support and consulting on this product - sell pre-packaged open source extensions to this pro…

I think for many “open source companies” there’s some underpants gnomes business planning going on: 1. Open source product 2. ??? 3. Profit! Open source isn’t a magical bandaid though it may get you some early traction, the same you can get by having a free plan. If you develop it appropriately and plan it out, it CAN be successful. But you have to think it out and choose an appropriate license, etc. Most successful…

> Open source isn’t a magical bandaid though it may get you some early traction, the same you can get by having a free plan.

I'm with you on this. You need to carefully plan. I also strongly believe you should not go with VC money. That excludes "burning money and we'll figure it out later". Your open source project will therefore probably start as a side project and/or with government help dedicated to business creators.

> Most successful open source companies would have been successful as closed-source

I believe this too. Now, there are more and more things that require open source products. Open source companies, including the one I work at, have received funds from openDesk [1] to develop a complete suit of open source tools. More and more research labs, universities and public institutions require open source. So there's a dedicated market that's growing.

You may succeed as a closed source company, probably more easily than as an open source company. But the story is not that clear cut, and it also depends on what you want to build and whether you really want to build that awesome product as closed source.

[1] https://www.openproject.org/blog/sovereign-workplace/

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#117
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> please do try! This is not very convincing as a reply to the risks pointed out in the previous post. The choice of the word "try" seemingly recognizes the risk of failure, but you seem to ignore the serious consequences of such a failure for founder and employees. I mean, this is not a game.

Building a company inherently carries a risk of failure with it. You seem to be taking it the wrong way, you really shouldn't be building your company based on a few opinions of HN comments, nor it's their responsibility to outline the full extent of risks involved.

Yes, but the response of "just try" is basically saying "do something the extra-hard way".

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#118
post #104
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that Open Source, by design, drammatically increases the likelihood of failure. It's already hard to build a successful business. Odds are already thin for you to succeed. Why choose a model that worsens it? Open Source was not created as a funding source to for-profit ventures. That's what these businesses are doing: raising labour funds for free to fund a profitable product. That's not the spirit and t…

> That's what these businesses are doing: raising labour funds for free to fund a profitable product. That's not the spirit and the purpose of Open Source. You are misguided. Here's what the company that employs me does: - develop an open source product. Open to contributions, but most of the dev is done by employees. - sell support and consulting on this product - sell pre-packaged open source extensions to this pro…

IME when you dig into the project and financials for companies like yours they're not software companies but service companies. This is not an insult; the economics are much different, and typically don't get the scalability that made software so ridiculously profitable.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#119
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My recommendation is this - decide if you want to make a company, or if you want to make Open Source. The number if places that have succeeded in both is vanishingly small. I would suggest the contrary: if you want to build a company and believe open source is the right way to do it, please do try! We don't have enough open source companies, we need more successful examples of this. It's hard and there are traps on…

There are four business models that I believe are sustainable for open source development. 1. Solo developer (or small group), funded via e.g. Patreon 2. Non-profit funded by sponsorships and donations 3. For-profit but the software is free; the company charges for support and/or cloud services 4. Open collective, where donations fund bounties that are paid out to people who contribute patches In other words, I think…

Consulting on the product is another important income, possibly higher than support. It can be:

- developing features or bug fixes in the open source product or an extension that are needed now by the customer

- developing a custom project (not in the open, or actually sometimes in the open) on top of your open source product for the customer

- supporting the customer for some integration with your open source product.

You can also try to sell paid extensions (that are still open source). That would be the case for XWiki Pro apps, or many WordPress extensions.

There's another way to do it, is develop your open source and sell your developer expertise for unrelated customer projects. I've worked somewhere working like this, but don't really believe it works well because you are not actually spending time in your project when you are doing this, and you are not incentivized to develop your own product when you do this. You are basically a consulting company. But you can still decide to do a bit of this.

Consulting and support can work for solo developers, but that might push quite some pressure and make it difficult to disconnect depending on the way you do this.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#120

>They offer a user friendly experience at a very attractive price point That's what most users care about. That it just works and it does that at an attractive price point. The rest is ideology and politics, which is fine if it's what you are into, but most people won't care.

Caring about what happens to the thing you bought five years down the road when the company that made it goes bankrupt is nor "ideology and politics"

>Caring about what happens to the thing you bought five years down the road when the company that made it goes bankrupt is nor "ideology and politics"

Au contraire - caring about what happens to the thing you bought five years down the road is ideology. And wanting anything done about it is politics.

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