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Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

metarationality.com

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Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#111
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling out Brexit is an... interesting way to argue here. Why? It's an example of directly affecting healthcare via political pressure. > If you're proposing my options for heath care are going to be taken away and given to the single option controlled by the electorate who are liable to do things like Brexit... no thank you That's the thing, it can also be fixed by the electorate. > I'll take marketplace competit…

> That's the thing, it can also be fixed by the electorate. In theory it can but in practice it usually isn't, especially for things like this. It's all too easy for some bureaucratic rule to be killing people who have e.g. a particular type of cancer, which makes that 0.5% of people care about it very much, but it takes 51% of people caring about it to change the law. Meanwhile some other rules are each killing some…

Those rules are completely hypothetical and borderline reductio ad absurdum, since they have never been in place anywhere in the world, and you could make the same argument about anything the government does.

You seem to pretend that people in countries with universal healthcare don't have any agency, but of course they do. Public healthcare doesn't preclude private healthcare. We see this in Western countries that have high-quality universal healthcare, which have successfully managed to strike a balance.

There will of course always be gaps not adequately covered by the public option — new, unproven modalities that aren't offered, or unacceptably long wait lists, or a certain drug being denied that might help improve quality of life over a more conservative drug. In those situations you always have the option to seek alternative private healthcare at higher cost, and you always have the option to get private insurance. So many commenters on HN (presumably American) paint universal healthcare as some kind of draconian Big Brother regime where it's either all or nothing, and the public option will "take away my rights," when nobody has ever proposed such a thing.

In the US, you are under the thumb of private insurance companies whose profit motive is, indisputably, not aligned with patients' healthcare needs. Sure, you can shop around for insurance plans, but realistically, when faced with a health crisis, that's not an option. Which means you have to deal with a system that doesn't care about your health and tries to wriggle itself out of paying anything more than the minimum they're obligated to cover, and that minimum isn't known until the bill arrives. To my mind, having lived under both types of systems, the American scheme is much more restrictive.

Under a universal healthcare scheme, there's no profit motive to cloud the quality of care. There's a cost reduction motive that can affect quality of care, but as the other commenter points out, the democratic model helps balance that. The world over, in places like Scandinavia and the UK, funding of healthcare is a big concern that gathers a lot of public debate and figures heavily in election campaigns; it's not swept under the rug. It's not perfect, but it feels much more of a "we are all in the same boat" kind of environment than the American one where every day we have newspaper articles about huge hospital bills, health bankruptcies, drug epidemics caused by greedy pharma companies, and widening wealth inequality.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#112
post #19

My boyfriend woke up one day to find out they couldn't pee. After a few ER visits and an MRI, they determined he had Stage 2 bladder cancer. However, because they had the audacity to seek immediate medical treatment for a life threatening health issue, they have now been saddled with thousands of dollars in medical debt. I had to personally dip into my earnings from my Big Tech internship to help pay some of it off.…

> They pay little, but there was an instance where one of their physicians had to appeal to insurance to get a scan done (thankfully the insurance acquiesced). It doesn't make sense and all this debate around single payer healthcare is just obfuscation and distraction from investigating actual solutions. Single payer is literally a complete solution to the problem you’re mentioning before. So why is it obfuscation an…

It’s an ideology issue. I’m writing from the future. Here in Swerway we have transitioned to a health system that makes people twenty-five years old forever. On the other side of the pond, the last few US administrations have gotten elected on the basis of convincing Americans that it is evil and morally corrupt to live forever, specially if you haven’t earned an ethical dispensation by becoming a billionaire first.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#113
post #43

Great article but the author is missing the fact that this is all designed on purpose. The insurance system is designed around a consistent strategy called “don’t pay out”. The USA spends more GDP on healthcare than any country on earth and the insurance companies are immensely profitable. Every company involved is making money off the status quo and wants to maintain the current system. when a patient comes along wh…

Health insurance profits are capped by government. They aren’t immensely profitable in the strictest sense of the word. That’s why they had to refund premiums during COVID.

A quick search shows they made more than 40 billion dollars in profit last year.

That seems immense to me.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#114
In US we already pool money for health insurance, like Australia, Canada, UK and the likes.

It’s just that a big chunk of that pool of money goes to middle men, some of who lobby heavily to law makers and media company to tell a story that we have the best healthcare.

US only works because we have other sectors of economy that generate a huge amount of wealth that even with such huge inefficiencies in healthcare, things move on.

US spends more every year on healthcare but its citizens’ life expectancy is decreasing. Post pandemic the trend is reversing.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-lif...

Some folks have figured out how to suck money and soul at a grand scale.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was somewhat surprising to see the author come up with "we need standardized interfaces between actors" rather than "we solve this with public healthcare for everyone". But to be fair, you can easily get lost in bureaucracy in public healthcare too, and private health insurance exists in countries with public health too.

Just switching to a public healthcare, or more likely, a public payer system won’t magically solve the problem. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done to ensure it works well. The difference is that there is evidence from other countries that a public payer system allows for a better medical system to be built on top of it. There’s no evidence that America’s system of patchwork and arbitrary payments by differen…

Of course it won’t magically happen; other countries have been doing this for decades. It would take time to sort out, but the important difference is having a human-focused common goal of fixing the problem.

The common goal now in the US healthcare system is profit while a secondary goal is patient care. This causes individual healthcare systems to AVOID, AT ALL COST, interoperability. By forcing administration and bureaucracy challenges they can charge exorbitant rates for those largely unnecessary challenges while claiming patient care as paramount. Unfortunately, this also negatively impacts the patients and their care.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was somewhat surprising to see the author come up with "we need standardized interfaces between actors" rather than "we solve this with public healthcare for everyone". But to be fair, you can easily get lost in bureaucracy in public healthcare too, and private health insurance exists in countries with public health too.

Just switching to a public healthcare, or more likely, a public payer system won’t magically solve the problem. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done to ensure it works well. The difference is that there is evidence from other countries that a public payer system allows for a better medical system to be built on top of it. There’s no evidence that America’s system of patchwork and arbitrary payments by differen…

Sure, but it would solve one important part which is determining who is paying and whether you can give services to someone, which seems to be the crux of the issue in TFA.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#117

“Standardizing an interface between health care providers and insurance companies would be a huge win.” There is a government mandated interface and it’s found at http://www.x12.org in the form of the 837, 835, 276/277, and 271/272 among some others. There are also paper equivalents in the CMS1500 and CMS1450. These are truly one of the main culprits of the problem because of how old, woefully inadequate, and rigid t…

The HL7 Da Vinci Project has defined modern FHIR based standards for many interactions between payers and providers. Some of these standards are now incorporated into CMS/ONC interoperability rules.

https://www.hl7.org/about/davinci/

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> USA has top tier health care. It's simply not economical to give it to everyone who demands it I've always thought that this is something basic that we need to address as part of any health care reform. We can't afford to give everyone unlimited health care, so how do we determine the limits? I assume that a lot of socialized health care systems end up using waiting lists, perhaps based on the patient's age, treatm…

I think for-profit healthcare can do a lot of unnecessary tests and treatments that fall far into diminishing returns or worse. It’s not necessarily a good thing to want unlimited healthcare for all. Proper use of a scarce resource doesn’t necessarily mean it’s about rationing it with waiting lists and selective treatment. You can probably get quite far by first not overtreating a lot of people.

Why do we assume that healthcare is a scarce resource? Sure, maybe some diagnostic/treatment equipment is not available everywhere, but the labor/cost issue seems to be created by regulatory capture, i.e. self-imposed barriers to entry. I agree that it is not in the best interest of the apex providers to change that. Telemedicine could be hugely disruptive if allowed to be practiced cross border between states. So would open collaboration of doctors between countries, e.g. I heard that some pathology operations are already utilizing labor in other countries, but having a domestic pathologist review the findings and signing off.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#119

I have a different take on the cause: everyone has been eaten by the liability monster.

That also involves insurance companies. I wonder how many of them have "exposure" on both sides of the medical business. So long as they can raise premiums/limit coverage they can seek rents. US medicine needs first and foremost transparency at every level. Transparency is in many ways obstructed by HIPAA. Sure, I wouldn't want even my largely unremarkable medical history plastered all over the Internet along with my more or less personally identifiable information or mined to target/discriminate against me, but there has to be a better way where we can use the information to lower costs and improve outcomes.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#120

American healthcare is truly apocalyptic. It is the worst of all systems in the world. Even developing Asian countries have figured out better systems. There is no one single root cause to fix here. The entire system needs to be uprooted - entire companies and shareholders will need to get wiped out. Unfortunately, ain't happening in ultra capitalist America. For other countries, there is still hope.

America is not ultra-capitalist. American capitalism is hobbled by regulatory capture. Here and there it manages to briefly escape, e.g. Uber and Lyft, only to be recaptured again by redesigned regulation/enforcement to preserve, among others, the tax base (rents) and thus support the bureaucracies.
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