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Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

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Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#111

Post by pixl97 »

stavros wrote: post #59
MBCook wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain apps have always gotten special treatment. If it’s big enough to mess with phone sales they’re allowed nonsense a normal dev would be permanently banned for. Ex: all the stuff FB has been caught doing over the years My understanding (no first hand experience) is that WeChat and Alipay are basically required in China. If a phone doesn’t have them, it’s worthless and won’t sell. So naturally they too can do non…

Why does apple get to decide which app gets automatic access to my private data, on my device, without needing to ask me?

Because this is how all operating systems work.

If Microsoft wanted to give special apps access to your private data without asking, then that is exactly what would happen.

The same thing is true in Linux, other than we'd expect that the open source nature would have users going "Yo, WTF"

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#112

Post by facialwipe »

lxgr wrote: post #73
MBCook wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain apps have always gotten special treatment. If it’s big enough to mess with phone sales they’re allowed nonsense a normal dev would be permanently banned for. Ex: all the stuff FB has been caught doing over the years My understanding (no first hand experience) is that WeChat and Alipay are basically required in China. If a phone doesn’t have them, it’s worthless and won’t sell. So naturally they too can do non…

No app gets special treatment for any of the user-grantable permissions like location, Bluetooth, local network access, contacts, photos... What makes this any different? It really seems more like an oversight than a conscious decision, similarly to how (I believe) both iOS and Android have retroactively had to bucket some of the Bluetooth LE permissions into "location", since that's what you can effectively do with…

Giving the world’s most valuable corporation the benefit of the doubt.

This is an interesting worldview to have in 2023.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#113

Post by [deleted] »

andirk wrote: post #62

Whether the user is aware and opt _in_ is the issue, right? But all of the network signals that are triggered by web applications, phone apps, OS, isn't it almost always possible to get SOME information about a user's geo location? There's a theory that Silk Road's Ross Ulbricht leaked his location via a Captcha on a website, despite actively covering his tracks. I think Bitcoin's Satoshi is/was an Australian bloke l…

[deleted]

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#114

Post by iamcalledrob »

eduction wrote: post #40

I thought users were prompted to give permission for this already? I get asked if I want to give “local network” access to apps sometimes (- lot these days actually) which I take to mean the ability to see local WiFi hotspots. I almost always deny this (and after reading this just turned it off for Spotify). I think the dialog that asks for permission could be improved, though, as most people don’t realize this can b…

As a developer, the annoying thing about the "Local Network" permission is that:

1) It's poorly implemented. Unlike other permissions, there's no way to explicitly trigger the prompt. It just pops up at Apple's discretion. There's no way to give it a "soft landing" for cases where it's necessary for core app features. And there's no way to check if the permission has been granted or not.

2) More importantly: Apple's own apps don't trigger this warning, which makes the playing field unfair. AirPlay etc. work seamlessly, whereas any competitor's tech doesn't. And as a developer, since you can't tell if this permission has been granted or not, you're left with a poor user experience.

I'm particularly fed up of (2). If Apple is going to introduce restrictions, they need to apply to their own apps as well. AirPlay and AirDrop need to each ask for Bluetooth and local network access. The Photos app needs to trigger the "Select photos, Allow All, Deny" prompt on launch. The Camera app shouldn't be able to write to the photo library without triggering the same prompt too.

That gives them an incentive to design the user experience around these restrictions well, and maybe be more creative with how to solve for this too rather than confusing dialogs.

Currently they have a disincentive to design this stuff well. Any iOS developer that's had to work with these APIs knows that they are designed absolutely awfully with arbitrary and unexpected limitations.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#115

Post by stavros »

pixl97 wrote: post #111
stavros wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does apple get to decide which app gets automatic access to my private data, on my device, without needing to ask me?

Because this is how all operating systems work. If Microsoft wanted to give special apps access to your private data without asking, then that is exactly what would happen. The same thing is true in Linux, other than we'd expect that the open source nature would have users going "Yo, WTF"

That's like saying "because that's how locks work, the company who sold you the lock can just come open your door".

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#116

Post by jabroni_salad »

tinus_hn wrote: post #81
stavros wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Get a list of visible SSIDs" is exactly how phones derive your location. There's little distinction between seeing SSIDs and seeing GPS coordinates for 99.9% of the population.

Back in the real world SSIDs are a very coarse and not very reliable way of locating devices. You are exaggerating.

In 2012 or so I was able to do turn by turn navigation pretty reliably on an ipod touch that did not have any gps capabilities. I think you'll find coarse location is a little more specific than you give it credit for.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#117

Post by gruez »

paxys wrote: post #105

Reading through the linked docs, this API seems to specifically be for apps created by owners of WiFi hotspots to help users connect to those hotspots ( https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension/h... ). > NEHotspotHelper allows your app to participate in the process of authenticating with hotspot networks, that is, Wi-Fi networks where the user must interact with the network to gain access to the wid…

>API seems to specifically be for apps created by owners of WiFi hotspots to help users connect to those hotspots.

VPN apps also seem to use it: https://github.com/pia-foss/mobile-ios/blob/4618b55161ec5b8b...

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#118

Post by anileated »

gruez wrote: post #104
anileated wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I used WeChat a few years ago and at that point it definitely asked for local network access (which is what this article is about; a mechanism for collecting SSIDs which can then later be correlated to locations). If there is an entitlement, it is as of yet unclear whether it means a consent dialog/privacy toggle or not. IIRC an entitlement only means you can ask for this sort of access, not get it automatically…

> FWIW I used WeChat a few years ago and at that point it definitely asked for local network access (which is what this article is about; a mechanism for collecting SSIDs which can then later be correlated to locations). Is that what "local network access" means? I thought that was for controlling network connections to LAN ips and/or to send multicast packets (eg. mdns).

> there was a VPN app I used that didn't have the "local network access" permission, but was still inexplicably able to get a list of wifi networks I connected to

It is different from continuously getting a list of all SSIDs within your Wi-Fi range, even those you never connected to. This is what allows shady apps infer location (this, and massive databases of SSID matched to coordinates).

What you described is also a feature of WireGuard iOS, and it needed no permission.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#119

Post by tqwhite »

My iPhone asks if I want to allow an app to access the Local Network. I assume that this

1) means that Apple does cover this situation and

2) my opinion that the phrasing "Apple allows applications to track user locations without authorization" is contemptible

are both true.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#120

Post by ycombinatrix »

tinus_hn wrote: post #43

One should realize that what they call ‘track user locations’ is actually ‘get a list of visible SSIDs’. Should be behind a permissions check, but not the end of the world.

One should realize that what they call ‘track user locations’ is actually ‘receive GPS radio signals’.

Should be behind a permissions check, but not the end of the world.

lol

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