Most non-technical PMs I’ve worked with have been ineffective because they don’t understand or think in terms of systems, they only think in “screens” and “buttons”. Put me in the “get rid of product managers altogether” camp.
More product, fewer product managers
111–120 of 314 posts
Re: More product, fewer product managers
#112The problem with most PMs is that they are not doing boots-on-the-ground work. A good PM should be constantly bridging the gap between engineering and the user.
1. Map the product or idea being built to those who will use it. Present it, get users feelings on it, if it is viable and needed. Throughout development, gather continuous feedback by demoing, shadowing, and adapting to new feedback. Plan and execute a launch, watch for snags, provide support and solutions to users.
2. Communicate gathered feedback to engineering, and do so with an understanding of where the project is engineering-wise, where it is going, what needs to change. Give engineering the "why. Convey the priority of everything the project needs vs what it has and what is being worked on.
Repeat this feedback loop.
But most of them seem to think they can operate entirely in document-land and just crank out roadmap docs and keep stakeholder alignment via endless check-ins and nagging. They are doing a "project manager" job instead.
Re: More product, fewer product managers
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? The developer teams, who else? You build it, you need to know what you are building, right? I find it fascinating that the dev community that gobbled so easily "You build it, you run it", doesn't question why we are not being trusted with knowing and determining what to be built in the first place. > For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory comp…
Every time I’ve worked on financial aid, HR, or financials, the PM has been an expert in those areas. I couldn’t do my job otherwise (or, I have to fill their shoes).
Why does the domain expert have to be the PM versus someone the engineers consult directly?
Re: More product, fewer product managers
#114I've spent some time interacting with product managers as an engineering manager, or head of a functional area. I've also been "acting" PM for an internal product at a medium size tech company. I think product management entails some of the most important things a company does. But it's really hard work, and many less capable PMs gravitate away from it and more towards either "driving" (i.e. micromanaging) the engine…
“Politics” 35 years in the semi industry. I must be stupid. I really don’t see politics. I see people trying to argue for their option and get support. But I’ve never seen this politics that people complain about. I’m so lucky I guess. Is politics just someone making a better argument that is the wrong technical decision? What is “politics”? Or am I just not at a high enough level (senior principal)?
Politics in this type of context is fighting to the death over a single pie versus working together to bake a second pie. Some of this is necessary but when you only do this a company will not grow except through luck.
Re: More product, fewer product managers
#115Ha, what's the difference between a project manager and a product manager? Two letters and about $50k-100k. I've done both and it ends up being project management with a few extra steps. The extra steps being, "focusing on the market, solving customer problems, and being strategic. You'll hear the classic adage of, ” well project managers deal with the how to execute and product managers deal with the what to execute…
I think the problem with these two roles is actually the confusion about what each is. Usually the issue is a "product" manager not doing the ideating, not doing research, not enough advocating about what user needs or what the product should be. Instead they do too much "project" management which amounts to gantt charts, check-ins, and nagging about status.
I have seen that in all sizes and maturities of company that people view these roles as interchangeable and they are not.
Re: More product, fewer product managers
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
If I consult a solicitor about data protection regulation and they tell me what I need to build to satisfy the requirements of soft opt-in under PECR, that does not make them a product manager!
No, but it's something a good product manager does for you, and with the economy of comparative and potentially absolute advantages. This let's you focus on the craft of delivery without encumberance of spending research into compliance.
Until you inevitably have a question and they need to get in touch with the expert again
Middle men only improve transfer of knowledge between people under very specific circumstance. Usually they just make things worse
Let children play Chinese whispers, I don't need that in my life
Re: More product, fewer product managers
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because if you’re working on a project big enough, you don’t have the time to be a good dev or a good manager. As a developer I wanted time to think about how best to solve the problem I was facing, not writing documents, refining the big picture, get a buy in from the stakeholders, giving reports, making sure the other parts of the project kept getting along and so on. It was important for me to be kept in the loop,…
We are not talking about a good manager here. We are talking about the one who can program manage to the level of lowest jira issues.
That’s not product management. That’s an under-qualified person misunderstanding their role. Product management is mostly a people job, understanding internal stakeholders, understanding customer, understanding the market, understanding the solution options, formulating and understanding strategy for the product, coordinating product marketing and documentation for the product.
If someone can do all that well, there’s simply no time to micro manage jira tickets
Re: More product, fewer product managers
#118I’ve been in product management for over 20 years, and I agree with most of what is said here. Ratios matter. CPOs end up empire building with an army of PMs. The organisation ends up with PMs owning a slice of the customer experience such as a single page, optimising CTRs on buttons, with no meaningful contribution to the product strategy or vision. It’s hard to be a Product Manager without owning a product.
Longtime PM as well, and I strongly agree. PMs should have lots of surface area —- ideally, an entire product (or more).
PMs should also be a lot more focused on the business’ goals than most PMs are. It’s necessary but insufficient to solve problems for your users. Solving those problems needs to translate into value for your company too.
Strong, product-minded Eng/UX partners are essential in enabling that.
Re: More product, fewer product managers
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory compliance laws, are you expecting every engineer to be an expert in those laws? And have contacts at the government agencies implementing those policies?
> In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? The developer teams, who else? You build it, you need to know what you are building, right? I find it fascinating that the dev community that gobbled so easily "You build it, you run it", doesn't question why we are not being trusted with knowing and determining what to be built in the first place. > For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory comp…
It seems like you're arguing that the dev teams should spend some of their time managing the product. In other words, it's a 'hat' to be worn occasionally by some team members.
Nothing wrong with that, except what typically happens at larger scales is that some people enjoy wearing the hat more than others, then the team realises that it's better if those people spend most of their time doing product management, and then they tweak their job titles ever so slighty....
> How often do you have a Product Manager who is an expert in regulatory/compliance laws and has contacts with government agencies?
In my (highly regulated) industry, always? They'd be bad at their jobs if they didn't have this.
Edit actually, I walk that last bit back slightly. They don't need to be experts in those things, but they need to know enough about the broad landscape to understand what tradeoffs need to be made and set direction. Similar to a CEO not needing to be an expert in product, marketing, engineering, finance etc. to be effective, but they do need to have enough knowledge to know how to balance competing requirements across these things.
Re: More product, fewer product managers
#120The problem with most PMs is that they are not doing boots-on-the-ground work. A good PM should be constantly bridging the gap between engineering and the user. 1. Map the product or idea being built to those who will use it. Present it, get users feelings on it, if it is viable and needed. Throughout development, gather continuous feedback by demoing, shadowing, and adapting to new feedback. Plan and execute a launc…
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