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Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

electrek.co

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Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#111

Post by qmarchi »

worik wrote: post #98
qmarchi wrote: post #5

It's crazy to me that this is possible in the first place. Standard practice is to have a fleet of test vehicles that are effectively production except in an early release group. Or, you know, having an A/B boot partition scheme with a watchdog. Things that have been around for decades at this point. Disclaimer: Former Googler, Worked closely with Automotive.

What amazes me is that any grown up person thinks it is a good idea to update vehicles as if they were telephones Owners should have to bring the vehicle into a shop to have changes made, and they should be very rare. This lazy, control freakery of the worst kind Something very bad is going on happen and people will die before we realize that it is a stupid dangerous practice

I understand the sentiment, but think about the alternatives.

There are a few different kinds of updates that can be applied, each with their own protective layers.

Infotainment updates, like what happened to Rivian aren't that dangerous. You lose "convienience features" like maps, air con, etc, but generally nothing that could kill you or someone else.

Then there's system updates, which is where danger noodle things happen. Automotive manufacturers are significantly more risk averse to updating these components, and generally, if _anything_ within the system looks wonky, it's an immediate revert.

If I, as a Polestar owner, wanted to get an update for my vehicle, the nearest service center is 1.5h away. If I lived in Montana (United States), it would be realistically impossible for me to update my car. Thus, if we want to enable competition within the markets, we shouldn't have regulations that force a new manufacturer to have a global network just to add CarPlay to a screen.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#112

Post by dilyevsky »

nkingsy wrote: post #57
dilyevsky wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nearly zero regular maintenance to be done on EVs though. No oil, no belts, no fuel filter, spark plugs etc. Even the brakes will likely last entire lifetime of the car

Hertz seemed to find teslas cost double ice counterparts to maintain. Maybe it’s auto company smoke but source: https://fortune.com/2023/10/27/tesla-elon-musk-hertz-evs-ren...

That’s because it is run by idiots who ran it into bankruptcy

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#113

Post by lotsofpulp »

aftbit wrote: post #78
kevinventullo wrote: post #46

My 2019 car is not connected to the internet. Instead, I use Apple CarPlay for everything. Is there any reason not to do it this way?

My cars are from 2019 and 2001. I don't use CarPlay or any internet features in any of them. Instead, I just use my Android's screen itself for navigation and bluetooth for phone calls and music. Perhaps there are advantages to tighter integration with my car (at least the newer one) but IMO they are outweighed by the risks of things like this, or even just getting a software update that borks a small feature that I…

CarPlay and Android Auto has no risk like this. It is great because it is just a protocol for your phone to be able to use the screen in the car. Your data stays on your phone, and there is no risk of intrusion.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#114

Post by refulgentis »

qmarchi wrote: post #100
michaelt wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's all-too-understandable how this is possible. Maybe they've got a test fleet, but it accepts code signed with the test build key. Maybe they've got a watchdog timer, but it doesn't get configured until later in the boot process. Maybe they've got A/B boot partitions, but trouble counting their boot attempts - maybe they don't have any writable storage that early in the boot process. I wouldn't be surprised…

So, using Polestar as a reference as it's both a vehicle that I've worked on, and one that I personally drive. > Maybe they've got a test fleet, but it accepts code signed with the test build key. Polestar solves this by only delivering signed updates to their vehicles. The vehicle headunit will refuse to flash a partition that isn't signed by the private key held by Polestar. Pulls double duty to prevent someone fro…

Opinion: I'm a little confused as to how you're confused as to how test might not match prod sometimes.

Observation: "[if you write buggy software], there's reason for you to get an off the shelf option"

Question: Are you saying if they used Android Automotive this could never have happened?

Reference: similar event for Android, last week: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1538248-pixel-phones-using-m...

Disclaimer: Former Googler, did not Work closely with Automotive, Worked closely with Android.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#115

Post by jonplackett »

nomel wrote: post #76
jawns wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the photo included in the article, what they're calling an infotainment system is actually two separate components, one of which appears to be taking the place of a traditional dashboard. If that's the case and there's no other way to monitor speed, fuel levels, engine temperature, warning lights, etc., I'd say that's quite a bit more worrisome than just not being able to play your favorite music while drivi…

I understand, but the risk of life wouldn't be from the bug, it would be from conscious choice of driving without a speedo. There's a critical distinction there. In this case, mileage/battery are still present, and I would assume safety critical warnings would still be displayed.

If you need thr car in an emergency and it's unusable, that almost counts.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#116

Post by theandrewbailey »

babypuncher wrote: post #77
nomel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this shows more of a fundamental flaw in their update mechanism, than anything. I don't think a botched update is a big deal. It happens, and should be expected , in a sane design. The fact that the customer noticed is a big deal. There are many implementations that could be used for an "auto rollback" feature. They either failed to implement that in a sane way, or they were goobers, and assumed things would…

I would be pretty pissed if I went out to my garage to head to work one morning and found that a damn software update bricked my car overnight. This shouldn't even be a thing, why does a car need regular software updates to keep functioning?

Cars 20 years ago, even most of them 10 years ago, never got any updates unless they got recalled. Nothing broke, nothing got hacked, and most are probably still working fine.

What happened to cars today? I refuse to believe that it's solely because these are electric cars, as if the way the car stores and uses energy dictates that it must be part of the internet of things.

Edit: there were electric cars over 100 years ago. I bet they never got software updates.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#117

Post by aftbit »

nkingsy wrote: post #57
dilyevsky wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nearly zero regular maintenance to be done on EVs though. No oil, no belts, no fuel filter, spark plugs etc. Even the brakes will likely last entire lifetime of the car

Hertz seemed to find teslas cost double ice counterparts to maintain. Maybe it’s auto company smoke but source: https://fortune.com/2023/10/27/tesla-elon-musk-hertz-evs-ren...

I'm not sure maintenance costs are really the relevant part. It seems like the problem is that Teslas are cheaper now and thus Hertz's fleet is worth less than it was before. Additionally, they find that Teslas suffer more damage, likely from collisions or similar. Routine maintenance costs are not mentioned in that article at all.

>In short, the declining value of the Tesla cars in Hertz’s fleet—a decline directly caused by Musk’s price cuts—has hit Hertz squarely in its profits.

>Without explaining precisely why, Scherr said Hertz is suffering a higher incidence of damage specifically with its EV fleet, where the repair costs are roughly double that of a comparable gas-fueled car.

>“Studies of current EV ownership evidence lower incidence of damage and collision than for ICE vehicles, not higher as we are experiencing,” he revealed. Musk’s price cuts then become an acute problem when one of the Hertz EVs sustains so much damage that the cost of repair is more than the asset itself.

>“Where a car is salvaged, we must crystallize at once any difference between our carrying value and the market value of that car,” Scherr explained. “The [price] declines in EVs over the course of 2023, driven primarily by Tesla, have driven the fair market value of our EVs lower as compared to last year, such that a salvage creates a larger loss and, therefore, greater burden.”

>In short, Hertz then needs to book a noncash accounting charge. Together with the higher repair costs this led to significant profit margin headwinds.

https://archive.ph/leFdf

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#118

Post by dilyevsky »

wannacboatmovie wrote: post #102
dilyevsky wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nearly zero regular maintenance to be done on EVs though. No oil, no belts, no fuel filter, spark plugs etc. Even the brakes will likely last entire lifetime of the car

EVs should be subject to mandatory German-style inspection by law to counteract this delusion.

Hey if you want to pay a dealer 300-500 euro to inspect your tires and swap air filter I’m not against that - you do you. Also if you buy a german car (ev or not) then yes a mandatory inspection is warranted

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#120

Post by lotsofpulp »

gmane wrote: post #50
kevinventullo wrote: post #46

My 2019 car is not connected to the internet. Instead, I use Apple CarPlay for everything. Is there any reason not to do it this way?

Then automakers can’t sell your information for fat stacks of cash.

This, and automakers do not want to become dumb appliances (even though they are for 90% of people).
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