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Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

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Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#111

Post by lotsofpulp »

cyberax wrote: post #44
s1artibartfast wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also add that many (most?) European countries allow multiple unions in the same shop, with worker choice. Inter-union competition is important to keep unions honest and aligned with their workers. I think this more than anything else is responsible for the anti-union sentiment in the US.

This really helps. There are also other ways unions can be corrupt. For example, the ILWU union allows its members to give their position to their children as an inheritance. It's literally a mafia ("family"). And of course, any random Joe can't just apply for a job with the ILWU. In rare cases where positions become available, they conduct a lottery. The end result is that the ILWU-controlled ports are competing wit…

The US also has lots of tribal/ethnic/skin color/religious/socioeconomic delineated groups that are not necessarily aligned with each other, and are OK with other groups being screwed.

One example I especially like to use is how agricultural workers are somehow not deserving of the same minimum wage as others. Even in the progressive states. Surely, it could not have anything to do with the workers mostly being poorer immigrants from a certain region.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#112

Post by AnthonyMouse »

audunw wrote: post #51
nabla9 wrote: post #4

American companies often think that European unions are just stronger than unions in Europe. They don't realize that labor and union laws are different. Toys R Us tried the same in Sweden. They initially refused agreement and hired only non-union workers. But transport and logistics workers union and finance union started sympathy strike. Toys R Us didn't get deliveries and bank workers refused work related to compan…

Want to share my reply to a comment reply here that was deleted, which called this “crazy”: It’s not crazy. It’s a very effective way of balancing the power dynamics between corporations and workers. What’s crazy is not having these rights enshrined in law. Why should the government tell workers how they can or cannot strike? This way of doing it gets you one thing that some Americans dream of: no federal mandated un…

> It’s not crazy. It’s a very effective way of balancing the power dynamics between corporations and workers. What’s crazy is not having these rights enshrined in law. Why should the government tell workers how they can or cannot strike?

It's like asking, why should the government tell business how they can or cannot do business? It's essentially an anti-trust issue. You don't want any organization to have too much power, whether it's a company or a union or even the government. You want power to be distributed as much as possible, but unions, like any other organization, centralize it.

The typical argument is that corporations centralize it too, but the answer to this is more anti-trust measures, not less.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#113

Post by eddtries »

hef19898 wrote: post #104
eddtries wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay a couple dollars a year in Sweden and my union offers unemployment insurance, 80% of my salary for six months if I’m laid off. I’m okay with that annual membership if that was all I got :)

On top of government unemployment benefits? That is incredibly generous!

Actually I don’t know if they’re on top of or a total replacement, but even as a replacement I’m happy! I work as a consultant so it’s always a little risky finding clients, but my annual take home from the previous year covers the downtime

And honestly I’d argue this fairly liberal approach encourages entrepreneurship because you have so many safety nets

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#114

Post by Propelloni »

seee-I-Told-you wrote: post #20

Unions are a good thing, definately right now when the competition from "slave owners" in eastern Europe, China etc will exploit workers and outrun competition that way. For Tesla, with China's export of electric vehicle it would be a good thing to "set the bar" and prevent low cost workers from entering the market - hence securing Tesla's position in Sweden. And that's what the "Swedish model" of working is all abou…

Imagine European unions would export their "lower bars" by helping workers in other countries unionize. That would give globalisation a whole new meaning.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#115

Post by s1artibartfast »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #28
InCityDreams wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...amd the Unions can also be in cahoots with each other (to not piss off the employer). A deal here, a deal there, between themselves and then with the employer, everybody is happy apart from the workers. Nb: 1st hand experience, currently ongoing.

Union members can be in cahoots amongst others even in the same union. All across the US, if you are younger, you likely get less compensation than if you are older. Older union members vote for higher compensation for themselves and reduced compensation for young and future union members, since they cannot vote. For example, if you look up collective bargaining agreements, you will often see tier 1 benefits for empl…

A classic example of this is teachers unions, where senior members can earn 2x the salary as junior ones for doing literally the same job. Similarly, unions frequently bargain away the retirement benefits of junior and future members.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#116

Post by jorams »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #64
audunw wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Want to share my reply to a comment reply here that was deleted, which called this “crazy”: It’s not crazy. It’s a very effective way of balancing the power dynamics between corporations and workers. What’s crazy is not having these rights enshrined in law. Why should the government tell workers how they can or cannot strike? This way of doing it gets you one thing that some Americans dream of: no federal mandated un…

Except immigrants will come to the country and be willing to work for lower wages, they will be OK without taking the union benefits. Unions are a way to enrich current members by creating an exclusive cartel. How do you deal with the fact that there are people willing to work for less?

> How do you deal with the fact that there are people willing to work for less?

The answer in the Netherlands is that for most industries that have one the collective agreement has been declared universally binding. It applies to everyone in that industry, whether they're a member of one of the bargaining organizations or not, and if a company ignores it they're breaking the law.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#117

Post by irusensei »

seee-I-Told-you wrote: post #20

Unions are a good thing, definately right now when the competition from "slave owners" in eastern Europe, China etc will exploit workers and outrun competition that way. For Tesla, with China's export of electric vehicle it would be a good thing to "set the bar" and prevent low cost workers from entering the market - hence securing Tesla's position in Sweden. And that's what the "Swedish model" of working is all abou…

Good unions are a good thing you mean?

I've lived in Brazil and over there most unions are disgraceful corrupt and nepotist institutions. Their directors are filthy rich from a time every worker was forced to pay a day of his wages every year. Opting out was as convenient and hard you can imagine and most agreements were corrupt dealings in closed doors with no regard to the interest of workers.

The one union I was forced to participate had its director caught accepting bribery and hiring his own family for director roles, whom in turn were lavished in gifts from companies like imported luxury vehicles.

The obligatory association law was abolished a few years ago but these unions are still trying to lobby government to provide an alternative to. A few months ago the Supreme Court came to an understanding it was okay to bring back the tax with opt out system under a different name.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#118

Post by monocasa »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #82
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely this. This is a perfect example of how corporate ownership of the political process has usurped the actual function of government responsible to the poorest people, in favor of taking care of corporate interests A great example of how oligarchical power is literally built into our legal infrastructure

> corporate ownership of the political process has usurped the actual function of government responsible to the poorest people This is a curious diagnosis of a late 40s law. Consider why average Americans, including those in the lowest rung, vote against pro-union legislation (or don’t turn out for it), as well as the difference between Swedish and American unions.

A good chunk is the late 40s geopolitical climate. Recalibrating for the cold war was already in progress.

1947 was one of the first red scares, with for instance then SAG president Ronald Reagan signing explicitly anti-communist statements.

Unions are always assault from capital; they just never really recovered in the US from the red scares.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#119

Post by VirusNewbie »

LadyCailin wrote: post #90
VirusNewbie wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except immigrants will come to the country and be willing to work for lower wages, they will be OK without taking the union benefits. Unions are a way to enrich current members by creating an exclusive cartel. How do you deal with the fact that there are people willing to work for less?

Norway will not issue a work permit for immigrants, if their work contract pays less than is typical in the industry. So this loophole is accounted for. Once an immigrant has permanent residency (or arrives due to marrying a Norwegian) then this could become a problem, but by then they have hopefully integrated enough, and will no longer work for peanuts. The cost of living being so high here probably discourages tha…

Thank you for responding, it seems like you were the only one to understand the problem and explain how it is mitigated there.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#120

Post by VirusNewbie »

jorams wrote: post #116
VirusNewbie wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except immigrants will come to the country and be willing to work for lower wages, they will be OK without taking the union benefits. Unions are a way to enrich current members by creating an exclusive cartel. How do you deal with the fact that there are people willing to work for less?

> How do you deal with the fact that there are people willing to work for less? The answer in the Netherlands is that for most industries that have one the collective agreement has been declared universally binding. It applies to everyone in that industry, whether they're a member of one of the bargaining organizations or not, and if a company ignores it they're breaking the law.

My point is you have a societal issue if you have thousands of workers migrating who are looking to work and willing to work for less. You can either choose to house and feed them and prevent them from working, or you can realize labor is cheaper.
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