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Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

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Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#111
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It decreases inflammation, and gives your gut chance to heal. It may improve sugar digestion, liver and so on. Are there clinical trials that show these outcomes in patients? (To clarify, I don't mean studies that show potatoes have potential chemicals/mechanisms related to those outcomes, but actual trials with patients that saw a scientifically meaningful difference in those outcomes after a potato diet.

I do not read studies, but this pops from google [1] Potato diet is a baseline in fasting community. Before you do long water fast, you need to go on detox. Doing potato diet for couple of weeks is strongly recommended. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6928682/

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Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#112
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All weight loss is because of a calorie deficit; that isn't (or shouldn't be) controversial. It's very controversial, which is part of why the SMTM blog exists in the first place. If running a calorie deficit were sufficient then any diet in the world should work, and we have so much evidence of obese people struggling with quality of life even living on extreme calorie deficit diets. It's not willpower, not all ca…

This post is really confusing. The "Standard Calorie Model" is not a thing. Are you using the term as a shorthand? If so, other people aren't going to know what it means. Regardless, nothing related to the use of calories to quantify energy intake from food or energy burned from exercise comes from Nazi Germany or Dr Kellogg. Despite other ridiculous beliefs Kellogg was a big fan of vegetables which were a big part o…

Sorry, I suppose that I do have some things mixed up and have listened to too many conspiracy theories. In re-researching now I may have earlier confused a journal with an author and a few other things when researching where some specific exercise calorie numbers come from. I'll retract most of my statements about the "Standard Calorie Model" as bad syncretism and review again further later.

> how calories in food and calories burned

Right or wrong on the specifics of the history of such things, this phrasing continues to bother me that every discussion about calories is still entirely in the vocabulary of Phlogistion. Calories are treated as particles somehow "in" food, and all we care about is how well calories "burn". The metabolism doesn't work as a fire. This just seems to me like a fundamentally bad assumption for how energy works in the metabolism. How is heat energy in food or heat energy during exercise good measurements or metrics for food or for human activity?

It's too over-simplifying as a model. It favors a heat-centric view of energy that both chemistry and physics have since rejected as critically flawed (including all the many times they rejected Phlogiston Theory). Physics has an easy and direct formula for the energy density of mass (E=mc^2) but we'd all have a good laugh if someone proposed we model human food consumption as an ideal fusion or fission reaction. Why is it not equally laughable when we talk about the energy in food based solely on how much heat it creates when food is set on fire or the energy costs of exercise based mostly on how much people exercising raise the temperatures of the rooms around them?

I think that's a bit more strange than just "incorrect numbers". I know that's a rare opinion in general, and I offer my opinions not to "disprove CICO" but to encourage people to explore the controversies themselves more deeply whether they end up agreeing with me after the exploration or not.

I think CICO is somewhat fine first-order approximation. Over-simplifying models are useful sometimes, and a broken clock can be right at least twice a day, especially if your error sensitivity is only plus or minus 10 hours. There are too many anomalies in the current obesity crises that CICO doesn't explain well. I think far too many people assume the over-simplified CICO map is the entirety of the complex territory of human dieting, and have a near religious fervor that too many people in the world simply love eating Phlogiston particles too much and don't have the "willpower" to cut the Phlogiston in their diet nor to exercise their Phlogiston away.

Plus there's a lot of interesting Goodhart's Law controversy in modern food that when a metric becomes the target it ceases being a good metric: have you explored the "zero-calorie" sections of your local grocery store lately? What do you think is the macronutrient benefit of some of those beverages and snacks? Do they actually seem healthier to you than things with plenty of food calories? Those foods certainly seem free enough of Phlogiston, so far as I can tell. But they certainly don't seem free from interactions with the human digestive system to me.

Maybe these aren't controversies that are worth talking about? I'm feeling sorry I brought it up. I'm definitely sorry I mixed up some facts that distracted from the actual points I was making. The obsession with heat energy/fire output as the one metric to rule them all and that can explain "all of food and exercise" is fascinating to me. It seems bad organic chemistry and it seems bad physics to me. CICO is right just often enough (as a high error rate, first order approximation) that it probably isn't worth the effort disproving, but that doesn't mean it is free from controversy.

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#113
post #95
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that people report that the potato diet is /easy/. No cravings, no endless hunger & having to force yourself to calorie count and stop eating when you hit your target. Eat as much as you like, when you like. That’s radically different from other diets.

The problem is SMTM seems obsessed with finding some explanation for why the diet works other than it being an easy method to reduce calories and generally appears convinced theres a non-CICO explanation for obesity and weight loss/gain that these potato diet experiments will be able to discover.

“An easy method to reduce calories” is fairly revolutionary in the academic diet world. Consistently losing weight is something that people find hard to stick to. A diet that is safe & makes it easy is in and of itself something very interesting.

HN types tend to take the “just eat less, lol” attitude, but in the real world that just doesn’t work very well for the majority of people. There’s no point arguing that people “should” be better at it: they aren’t, for sound biological reasons. Forcing them to behave otherwise & then blaming them when it doesn’t work is simply cruel. Hence the idea that a diet that lets obese people steadily lose weight without any other interventions is a bigger deal than you’d otherwise expect.

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#114

Diets seriously need to be considered through the lens of Occam's razor. First, radical dietary changes cause rapid fluctuations in weight regularly. Not fat, weight. Second, if you eat only one thing or are generally restrictive... You will probably lose a lot of appetite. It's no good going off on some theory about pottasium. Occam's razor suggests that this also works for the been soup diet, fruit diet, etc. It is…

> They do not have magic dietary powers. Depends on what diet you compare them to. If you could demonstrate people could live healthy lives on just potatoes compared to a normal Western diet, that seems like a significant finding. I don't think toast or bacon would give you the array of vitamins/nutritional value. What other foods would beat out potatoes? Beets maybe? I have also heard some dietitians questioning the…

>Depends on what diet you compare them to. If you could demonstrate people could live healthy lives on just potatoes compared to a normal Western diet.

People (academic even) "demonstrate" this all the time. All meat diet. Vegan diet. Raw diet. One meal per day. The potatoes and lemons diet. Etc.

Feed most overweight western adults a restrictive diet, their health is likely to improve dramatically. That's because it's restrictive. Not because of what it is restricted to.

If you have >15kg of excess fat, you are probably reslient to undernourishment. The fat loss, lower blood sugar and such will improve your health.

Btw, in 19th century ireland, poorhouses published guidelines for the all potato diet. Their clients were undernourished. Their guidelines based on observing individuals who would deteriorate quickly if the diet was insufficient.

Their dietary minimum was 3-4kg of potatoes + 1 pint of milk or one portion of sardines or mackerel. You need to eat a lot of potatoes to make this diet sustainable.

A modern Irish man is much heavier, and much, much fatter than our great grandfathers. We also do less physical work. In that context, we can survive just fine on a lot of insufficient diets for a very long time.

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#115
post #58

I really enjoyed SMTM's "A Chemical Hunger" series[1]. But recently they've gone into weird fad-diet territory with their potato obsession. Like, they crow that the potato mono-diet "works," in that the people who successfully followed it lost weight. Well, sure -- all of those 70s fad diets "worked" in that sense! Grapefruit and popcorn? Sure, you can lose weight on that! But their own numbers show that people regai…

> But their own numbers show that people regain the weight after they start eating other foods again: "On average, people gained back most of the weight they lost."[2] Every single diet suffers from that, because you don't need a diet, you need a life style and as the name implies it, it has to be sustained for your whole life

It's important to recognise that even with "lifestyle" changes, weight loss is often not sustainable. Here's a quote from a review of the literature undertaken in 2018[0]:

> In a meta-analysis of 29 long-term weight loss studies, more than half of the lost weight was regained within two years, and by five years more than 80% of lost weight was regained

Or, to offer some anecdata, I lost 60 pounds in early 2012. I started working out. In 2015, I hiked every weekend, totaling more than 400 miles of distance covered, and more than 20 miles of elevation gain. And in 2016, while training for a trek in Peru, I injured myself and was unable to exercise for quite a while. I gained about 20 pounds back, but then stabilised -- until COVID, when high stress and a forced change in dietary habits (I couldn't go to the grocery store easily, and many foods were routinely out of stock) means I ultimately gained back the remainder of my weight, some eight and a half years after losing it. In particularly extreme examples,

Generally speaking, weight loss as a goal is destined to fail. Even when significant habitual changes are effected, the reality is that people's metabolism is hugely impacted by their early life. Furthermore, weight loss has often been found to increase levels of hunger[1], which makes it incredibly difficult to sustain. And in extreme cases -- such as the Minnesota Starvation Experiment[2] -- low-calorie diets (in this case, actually about 1600 calories a day) can cause persistent decreases in both basal metabolic rate and satiety, which means those who have lost weight will not only find it harder to maintain the weight due to a decreased caloric requirement, but also because of increased hunger.

The tl;dr here is that sustained weight loss may be possible, but the best bet is probably weight loss which occurs over a period of a decade or more, because any faster and you start to risk some paradoxical outcomes which will make it increasingly difficult to maintain.

0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5764193/ 1. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/weight-loss-le... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experimen...

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#116
I love the half-mad, half-hilarious, Ben Franklinesque quality of this enterprise: “Some people think the potato diet causes weight loss because it is bland. We think this is wrong too. First of all, potatoes are delicious. Second of all, this doesn’t make any sense. Why would that happen.”

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#117
post #103
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it's easy on the hunger/cravings side of things but it eliminates your ability to enjoy food and enjoy the social aspect of dining. I achieved similar by swapping out white bread for whole wheat and mostly eliminating dessert from my diet. I also have no hunger/cravings/calorie counting but I still enjoy all my meals. I don't mean to say that any one diet is the answer, just that if your goals are modest you…

Eliminating deserts doesn't make cravings go away for me. I feel hungry (or a weird similar feeling) until I eat something sweet, no matter how much I eat of a main course. But I tried the potato diet and my cravings were gone. For two weeks it was trivial to keep, but then social aspects intervened and I gave it up.

That sounds really challenging. I guess people vary a lot in their experiences of hunger, which is probably why different diets work/don't work for different people

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think SMTM is proposing the potato diet as a permanent weight loss dilution, but think that there is something weird going on here that might result in a permanent dietary recommendation if understood. For example, we might find that the potassium is causing the weight loss and supplementing high doses of potassium could be something you do permanently.

There've been multiple studies that gave people potassium supplements and measured their body weight. (Primarily because potassium helps lower blood pressure). They haven't found that potassium causes weight loss. See my meta-analysis here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sR1T2Kb1X1fCLYeEE-U3Rwei...

That was just an example. They are doing this weird riff model because right now there are too many variables
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