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Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

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Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#111

Post by Klonoar »

at_a_remove wrote: post #76
rented_mule wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shortly after buying a car, I always go a large, empty parking lot late and night, get up to about 30 mph and stop as hard as I can. I want to understand what it feels like before I get into a panic situation. I only buy a car every 10 years on average, so it's interesting to see the progress in braking. My current car (a 2014 model) stopped so quickly and so violently that it frightened me. Everything not tied down…

Similarly, when it snows I like to find a parking lot and practice a few skids before I drive any real distance.

Depending on where you live, if it's been awhile since it rained and then you get a downpour, test traction before driving off.

Doesn't need to be anything serious but it can bring oil/etc to the surface and it's good habit to be feeling what you're driving.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#112

Post by [deleted] »

aidenn0 wrote: post #74
taylodl wrote: post #67

FortNine on HN! I love it when two different aspects of my life collide! For the HNers who don't know much about motorcycles, in the motorcycling world there's a big argument whether ABS is a net good or not. The old-timers tend to say "learn to ride your bike, you can beat ABS." Manufacturers site statistics saying ABS saves lives. This video is good in that it shows old-timer braking + ABS gives the best of both wo…

> ...just slamming on the brakes isn't the best strategy for emergency stopping It seems like there is no technical reason why phased braking couldn't be added to a more advanced ABS system. Early car ABS systems were also much worse for stopping distance than threshold braking, but more advanced systems have made up much of the difference.

[deleted]

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#113

Post by dharmab »

mindslight wrote: post #34

Is the default behavior in motorcycle land really to just use the back brakes? When I rode a bicycle in a city I learned to use both, but primarily my fronts. I definitely had some panic stops where I was modulating to prevent the rear wheel coming off the ground. But maybe the calculus changes with motorcycles' higher speed, as maintaining steerability becomes that much more important? I'm actually kind of surprised…

> Is the default behavior in motorcycle land really to just use the back brakes?

there are a lot of old fogeys who think if you touch the front brake you'll flip over the bars. the MSF class specifically teaches that the front is 80% of your braking and to use both brakes, but a lot of motorcyclists never get a permit/license and learn from a family member or something, so myths persist

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#114

Post by sudosysgen »

aidenn0 wrote: post #75
sudosysgen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average car doesn't actually have more grip than the average motorcycle. More surface contact != More traction. Grip in a motorcycle is only really limited by gravity. That's still far better than most cars. The average motorcycle (or bicycle, for that matter) will have little problem hitting 35 degrees lean and therefore produce lateral G forces exceeding that of a typical car. Same is true for deceleration, the…

A car with one wheel locked up has a lot more grip than a motorcycle with one wheel locked up. That might be an obvious non-sequitur, but when we are talking about ABS, it applies.

Neither of them lock up, we're talking about braking performance with ABS.

And cars don't lock up a single wheel without ABD. When they do lock up you generally lock everything up.

The question is, do cars have more grip? No, not really. Do they have better braking performance? Not really, either. Are they easier to use? Sure. The reason you can have a harder time on a bike isn't because of any fundamental limitation, it's just poor training - the video is correct. And car drivers also don't break anywhere near the theoretical potential of their car, either.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#115

Post by rented_mule »

c22 wrote: post #107
latchkey wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you planning on getting next year?

GP didn't say they buy a new car every 10 years.

That's right. I'm hoping to get another 10+ years out of this one. It's up to 165K miles, and I hope it lasts beyond 300K. My wife and I only have the one car despite living in a rural area and it fits our use cases perfectly.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#116

Post by darkerside »

labcomputer wrote: post #79
tass wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a modern ( In the past, this was likely true when ABS systems weren't able to control individual wheels. They can do that today, can check for wheel lock-ups and react dozens of times a second, and can therefore compensate for changing grip at different parts of the road during the entire stopping process. In formula 1, where ABS has been banned, drivers have the capability to manually adjust brake balance (front/…

> In a modern ( There is an old SAE paper published by Chrysler that I can't find at the moment. IIRC, it was published in 1968 or 1969, and evaluated their new all-wheel[1] ABS system (later to be sold on the 1969-1973 Imperial). The gist of it is that on most surfaces relevant passenger cars, ABS gives somewhat ~shorter~ [Edit: longer ] stopping distances but the difference is minimal compared to a trained professi…

Depart the road means flip?

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#117

Post by lmm »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #105
ehaliewicz2 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be a little too far, but I sometimes say to my friends that a minor crash should actually be part of driver training. Modern cars feel extremely safe, and nearly drive themselves, so many people do not take driving as seriously as they should, and not as seriously as they do after they have their first collision. Perhaps being required to actually use 100% braking power to pass is enough :) In this respect…

In this respect, motorcycle training courses are MUCH better, and have numerous braking and swerving drills, but they have to be, because motorcycles require a higher-level of attention and are significantly more dangerous to operate than a car. Then why does almost every motorcyclist I see ride dangerously? They all follow too close. Many will spill over into the oncoming traffic lane to overtake something in their…

Maybe those motorcycle training courses have become so strict that young people don't bother, and most of the bikers you see are those "grey haired dudes" who learnt back when standards were lower.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#118

Post by lmm »

kimixa wrote: post #91
grecy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think full braking should be part of driver training I thought it was. I distinctly remember my Dad telling me to slam on the brakes while teaching me to drive. I pushed them hard, but nothing crazy. He said to get up to speed and kick the pedal through the floor and hold it there. Older car, full lockup and skid for a good distance. We did that more than once. Now 25 years later, I do exactly the same thing ever…

It definitely is as part of the UK driving test, though they normally tell you it's coming up and intentionally take you to a quiet back road and make sure it's completely empty first. In my test the instructor told me to keep driving until they wacked their clipboard on the dash, then I had to STOP as quickly as possible, and you'd fail if you didn't apply heavy brakes quick enough. And as this is common in the test…

It used to be a mandatory part of the UK driving test. Now it's one test out of three, so you can skip preparing it and just retake your test if you get unlucky.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#119

Post by sudosysgen »

tass wrote: post #35
iokanuon wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video is about motorcycles, not cars. Also, the data on this is in the linked video - the author demonstrates you can do a controlled stoppie to decelerate faster without ABS, because that's its main feature - preventing you from flying off the bike.

I've seen the video, but the comment I'm replying to seems to be referring to a car driving course. I'm a little surprised there's no "pro ABS" for motorcycles which allows you to do a stoppie if you enable an option, and/or are keeping the bike perfectly straight.

There is, that specific bike has it and it's really close to the best performance you can get as an expert. But it's not very common

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#120

Post by latchkey »

rented_mule wrote: post #115
c22 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP didn't say they buy a new car every 10 years.

That's right. I'm hoping to get another 10+ years out of this one. It's up to 165K miles, and I hope it lasts beyond 300K. My wife and I only have the one car despite living in a rural area and it fits our use cases perfectly.

Sorry, I read it as every 10 years.

Agreed on the lowering of consumerism.

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