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Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

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Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#111

Post by ben_w »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #56
RandomLensman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies are totally entitled to stick to the law, but they also need to then deal with the fact that narrow compliance with the law might bring them into conflict with parts of society (who in turn might stick to the law in dealing with them). That said, we already have determined that generally just "sticking to the law" isn't a great defense in all situations anyway.

In a free society based on the rule of law, you cannot demand that anyone goes beyond the law. That's a key principle. Now, as mentioned, in business other parties can also use their legal rights to bring about negotiations, but let's not depict Tesla as horrible for simply staying within the law...

> you cannot demand that anyone goes beyond the law

Sure you can — "sign this contract to get this result" — just so long as you yourself aren't breaking the law in making the demand.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#112

Post by hnbad »

markjonsona989 wrote: post #33

I have to say I don't understand Elon's (Tesla's) reaction here. Surely he was advised on Swedish and EU laws and how things work over here before he decided to do business in Sweden?

Based on the attitude he has shown to compliance at X, I guess he thinks that's not a problem he can't solve by just throwing money at it when push comes to shove. He's infamously been quoted as saying he's okay representing himself in court because he's been sued so many times. I don't think he listens to lawyers unless they can credibly convince him he'll go to prison otherwise.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#113

Post by eesmith »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #87
markjonsona989 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I also said "the way things work here" because it's a cultural thing; you just don't mess with worker's right in Europe. It might not be against the law, but it's not a normal practise. From what I found online last time this happened in Sweden was in 1920s. I'm not from Sweden but I am European and I know that unions and strikes are a normal thing and everybody supports them. If Elon tries to forcefully b…

I was thrown off by you bringing up the law, as it were relevant

The law is relevant. In the US, because of the NLRB v. Mackay Radio & Telegraph Co. ruling, companies may use strikebreakers as a permanently replacement for striking workers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLRB_v._Mackay_Radio_%26_Teleg....

The US is one of the few places which allows this. (That is a "Today I Learned".)

If I read https://sv-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/%C3%85karpsla... right, Sweden got rid of the legal right to employ strikebreakers in 1938 when they switched to the "Swedish Model" based more on collective bargaining than on government involvement.

Someone used to the US laws should be aware that different countries don't use the same legal framework.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#114

Post by hnbad »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #41
markjonsona989 wrote: post #33

I have to say I don't understand Elon's (Tesla's) reaction here. Surely he was advised on Swedish and EU laws and how things work over here before he decided to do business in Sweden?

Im not sure what you are saying. Strikebreakers are not illegal in EU. They aren't anywhere AFAIK, unions workers just dont like scabs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikebreaker#Europe

They're kinda illegal in Germany, actually. Based on a legal change in 2017, employers are prohibited from hiring temp workers[0] to take over work from striking employees. There are probably loopholes by having excess temp workers on staff at all times rather than hiring them specifically during a strike but this kind of redundancy is probably frowned upon by shareholders more than the lost productivity of a strike.

[0]: Specifically the law addresses "loan workers" but Germany has fairly strict laws surrounding so-called "independent contractors" in these roles: https://www.buzer.de/s1.htm?g=A%C3%9CG&a=11

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#115

Post by johnchristopher »

hnbad wrote: post #69
johnchristopher wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not following Tesla things but don't they have factories in Germany and didn't they face the same problem ?

Tesla tried to keep unions out but apparently IG Metall (the largest and politically most powerful industrial trade union in Germany) announced earlier this month that more than a thousand workers at the Gigafactory Berlin-Brandenburg joined the union: https://www.igmetall.de/im-betrieb/ig-metall-organisiert-tes... According to the union's statement, a third of all workers is on sick leave at any given time due to wo…

Thanks for the details !

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#116

Post by yaris »

Arnt wrote: post #45
einpoklum wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if that is even legal in Sweden (I'm not sure) - the striking workers could _physically_ stop this. And then there would be the question of the statutory limitations on Swedish state involvement in labor disputes. (And the union could also get in touch with such hires and explaining the situation to them, which is also likely to be somewhat effective in deterring this sort of scabbing.)

In .no the visa application process involves a form where the prospective employer states that we tried and failed to find employees in the country. I've written justification prose for that form. I would be astonished if there isn't a similar form in Sweden.

Last time I dealt with this in Sweden there was a similar form. There was also a form that should certify that the offered salary is not below the "industry level" - which in many industries is set by unions. Also a form that the employee candidate should submit to Migrationsverket (this concerned only non-EU candidates) contained data about life and health insurance companies/contracts that cover expenses in case of injuries and such, so that Migrationsverket could (and sometimes did) check if the named companies exist.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#117

Post by tibbydudeza »

vasdae wrote: post #37
tibbydudeza wrote: post #17

Elon acting like a true South African born in the 80's. Niemand gaan my fokken vertel nie :). Die Blerrie Commies. Translation - Nobody is going to tell me how to do things. Esp Bloody Socialists.

Socialists are a scourge. Source: I'm Spanish.

So you say Franco was one of the good people on both sides :).

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#118

Post by tibbydudeza »

waihtis wrote: post #32
tibbydudeza wrote: post #17

Elon acting like a true South African born in the 80's. Niemand gaan my fokken vertel nie :). Die Blerrie Commies. Translation - Nobody is going to tell me how to do things. Esp Bloody Socialists.

He is the richest man in the world with many excellent companies. Seems to be working well for him.

He is still an idiot - he did not start Tesla btw :).

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#119

Post by hnbad »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #105
masklinn wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no minimum wage in sweden, because in central european labour fashion they expect labour and companies to cooperate and come to a mutually agreeable and socially beneficial rate. Although germany recently ended up introducing a legal minimum wage because an other US corp was being too shit about it (I don’t remember if it was amazon or something like walmart).

Actually, the EU is pushing for minimum wages in all countries but Sweden is pushing back because their system apparently does not need it...

Sweden does not have a minimum wage because unions are more efficient at ensuring livable wages than legislation and setting a legal minimum wage in this scenario would only benefit the bargaining position of employers by giving them a low-ball reference value.

This is very different from the neoliberal argument against minimum wages which boils down to "if we need to pay workers a livable wage our profit margins would be tighter" or more charitably "if we need to pay workers a livable wage some jobs would become unprofitable and we'd have to lay those people off" (which only holds true when the jobs are non-essential to the company in such a way that laying people off doesn't mean outsourcing them - a lot of low-paying jobs are absolutely essential to business operations but are seen as cost centers because they don't directly contribute to revenue).

The reason the EU is "pushing for minimum wages" is that the EU pushed for the liberalisation of markets in EU countries some twenty years ago (and its various extensions thereof) and that led to an increase in wealth gaps, a loss of income security, gutting of social welfare systems and the proliferation of temp work agencies (which e.g. in Germany were illegal up to that point and offer an easy way to sidestep unions). Minimum wage is a bandaid for the gashing wound left by market liberalisation.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#120

Post by mytailorisrich »

hnbad wrote: post #119
mytailorisrich wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the EU is pushing for minimum wages in all countries but Sweden is pushing back because their system apparently does not need it...

Sweden does not have a minimum wage because unions are more efficient at ensuring livable wages than legislation and setting a legal minimum wage in this scenario would only benefit the bargaining position of employers by giving them a low-ball reference value. This is very different from the neoliberal argument against minimum wages which boils down to "if we need to pay workers a livable wage our profit margins wou…

I think you mean "effective".

This is beside the point of what a legal minimum wage is, orthogonal with negotiations through unions, and has nothing to do with liberalisation.

There is no reason for Sweden not to have a legal minimum wage. From an outsider's POV this really seems to be psycho-rigid stance "no our system does not need one!" when it actually does not hurt the system or negotiations through unions at all.

In a way, I think what's happening with Tesla is making noise because it's putting them on the spot. They are running around crying "but you can't do that!!" because the fact is that actually Tesla can and that's exposing the weakness of the whole system, which is actually informal and not backed by law at all.

That's not saying that Tesla won't back down and reach a deal with the unions, but they are only doing what they are entitled to do.

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