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FCC moves ahead with Title II net neutrality rules in 3-2 party-line vote

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Re: FCC moves ahead with Title II net neutrality rules in 3-2 party-line vote

#111
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you think it was a federal law domain? The federal government is technically only allowed to do what is granted in the Constitution. The 10th amendment says anything else is left to the states. Last I checked nothing in the constitution mentioned the internet. Not that the federal government lets that stand in their way.

Like the other comment said, the internet is basically as interstate as a thing can get by design. The interstate commerce clause is extremely broadly interpreted. It can, for example, be used to prevent a farmer from growing grain on their own farm to feed their own cattle that reside on that very farm(Wickard v. Filburn)

Not a lawyer, but I found an explanation about why states can pass net neutrality laws. Communication over the internet has both interstate and intrastate components. More on the intrastate component later. The Commerce Clause gives Congress authority to pass legislation to regulate interstate commerce [1]. Congress can also delegate a portion of its authority to federal agencies such as the FCC.

What happens when the FCC chooses to abandon its authority to regulate ISPs? More specifically, what happens when the FCC chooses to deregulate the ISPs by reclassifying broadband from Title II to Title I? Then the FCC cannot preempt state laws regarding telecom unless Congress gave it an authority to do so. In Mozilla Corp. v. FCC, 940 F. 3d 1 (D.C. Cir., 2019), the FCC tried to argue that it could preempt state net neutrality laws [2].

Quoting the page 132 of the case text PDF (which you need to download to ctrl-F, since Justia's PDF viewer messes up whitespace between words) [3][3.5]:

> Third, the Commission points to 47 U.S.C. § 160(e). That provision says that “[a] State commission may not continue to apply or enforce any provision of [the Act] that the Commission has determined to forbear from applying under subsection (a).” Subsection (a), in turn, gives the Commission some flexibility to forbear from regulating technologies classified under Title II. Id. § 160(a).

> That Title II provision has no work to do here because the 2018 Order took broadband out of Title II. So the Commission is not “forbear[ing] from applying any provision” of the Act to a Title-II technology. 47 U.S.C. § 160(e). On top of that, Section 160(e)—as a part of Title I—does not itself delegate any preemption authority to the Commission. People of State of Cal., 905 F.2d at 1240 n.35.

In short, the FCC gave up its authority to preempt state net neutrality laws the moment the FCC reclassified broadband from Title II to Title I.

There's another important point which starts on page 134 and continues to page 135 [3.5]. (If you want to ctrl-F it, you'll have to select just the first few words because page breaks in the PDF obstruct paragraphs.)

> Not only is the Commission lacking in its own statutory authority to preempt, but its effort to kick the States out of intrastate broadband regulation also overlooks the Communications Act’s vision of dual federal-state authority and cooperation in this area specifically.

Meanwhile, back on page 126 [3.5]:

Section 152 of the Communications Act provides, as relevant here, that “nothing in this chapter shall be construed to apply or to give the Commission jurisdiction with respect to * * * regulations for or in connection with intrastate communication service by wire or radio of any carrier.” 47 U.S.C. § 152(b). That provision divides regulatory authority “into two separate components: interstate communications, which can be regulated by the [Commission]; and intrastate communications, which cannot.”

Therefore, states actually have Congress's blessing to regulate broadband to some degree: states have authority over communications confined within the respective states.

So what about the Dormant Commerce Clause, which prohibits states from "passing legislation that discriminates against or excessively burdens interstate commerce" [1]? I don't know whether courts have come to an answer about whether state net neutrality laws violate the Dormant Commerce Clause. So instead I'll pose food for thought: To what degree do you think state net neutrality laws burden interstate commerce? Is the burden excessive? Net neutrality means that an ISP can't restrict traffic on the grounds of content, senders, and recipients [4]. What kind of burden does that place on an ISP which offers internet in multiple states?

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/commerce_clause

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corp._v._FCC

[3] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/cadc/1...

[3.5] https://cases.justia.com/federal/appellate-courts/cadc/18-10...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality

Re: FCC moves ahead with Title II net neutrality rules in 3-2 party-line vote

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for that link but I'm having trouble parsing Ben Thompson's argument.He says that he's in favor of net neutrality but against this specific regulation. Why? Because...I think...at some point somebody fell for a fake tweet? Also because regulation is bad because of..completely unrelated example of regulatory excess involving restaurants in SF? I mean, is he saying he's against any regulation of anything, now? O…

You're right--I don't read a specific "here's the onerous parts of Title II" bit in that article. I think his argument is that: 1. The problems that supporters say net neutrality would fix are fictitious (the tweet), already handled (Comcast and bittorrent traffic), or not necessarily addressed by net neutrality (zero rating) 2. Title II classification entails much more regulation than net neutrality 3. Therefore app…

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Even there I think he's presuming some bad outcomes and discounting good ones, but I do understand the reasoning. I appreciate your reply.

Re: FCC moves ahead with Title II net neutrality rules in 3-2 party-line vote

#113

Not an American: what is the non-libertarian public-facing argument against net neutrality? I'm sure its opponents say it's bad for the general public for some reason, and one of them might be some kind of "let market competition work it out" etc. If you discard that, what is left? There is probably also the argument that various businesses want this repealed, this is kind of clear.

If you look at Ajit Pai's (former Verizon lawyer turned FCC chairman who did away with NN) comments, he basically says "there is no problem to solve".

However, you can read through this thread and see if you feel this is true or not today in practice, let alone in perpetuity in theory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37945011

Re: FCC moves ahead with Title II net neutrality rules in 3-2 party-line vote

#114
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I’ve never understood is the argument that what California does regulating ISPs could actually affect the service plans in 49 other States. Think about it: these are service plans offered through cables that already exist, and that cross defined borders right? But what all an ISP has to do to offer different service plans in California, Oregon, Nevada and Arizona is to merely offer different terms to different p…

> What I’ve never understood is the argument that what California does regulating ISPs could actually affect the service plans in 49 other States. What I've never understood is the argument that what Europe does regarding privacy could actually affect the privacy of other countries. Sure, some websites detect your location and apply different rules to you but a lot end up just following GDPR and apply it universally…

Except for the fact that the facts are different.

When you sign up with an ISP, you’re signing up for a guaranteed service at a physical location with defined jurisdictional borders and laws governing it. My ISP throttling their New York customers who try to use Netflix isn’t going to affect me. Honestly throttling their Oregon customers wouldn’t either.

This is factually different from Facebook who serves people independent of their location, residence or citizenship and don’t give a fig about who your ISP is because laws might cover someone based on any or all of those whereas a Californian who invades Texas is no longer covered by California-specific consumer protection laws, and to the extent that businesses choose to adhere to them in Texas is incidental. ISPs are very much bound by the location they setup infrastructure in in the way that the services you access through that connection are not as evidenced by the fact that they already take into account your residential address when determining 1. if they can service your location at all and 2. what services and what quality guarantees they can make to you.

Also just to make a note on GDPR, one of the screwy things about it is that covers EU citizens. EU citizenship is a complicated enough thing, but there’s a lot of people with EU citizenship living elsewhere in the world. Fully complying with GDPR is a much more onerous requirement in terms of infrastructure and professionals you need to hire than ISPs complying with a net neutrality law in one State. I’m not saying there’s no additional overhead, it probably is easier to have contracts that are as standard across as many markets as possible, but ISPs are already skilled at working within local jurisdictional requirements.

Re: FCC moves ahead with Title II net neutrality rules in 3-2 party-line vote

#115
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea that's probably an example - those companies get preferential treatment on the network w.r.t traffic and so competitors have a harder time entering the market.

But if they simply give you a free subscription without any kind traffic shenanigans, it's not a net neutrality issue?

Probably not unless there is something I'm not considering

Re: FCC moves ahead with Title II net neutrality rules in 3-2 party-line vote

#116

Our laws are very similar to our medicine. We take a pill that causes a side-effect, which requires a pill to fix that side-effect but causes another side effect... so on. We start with state interference of the free market in a small way, and it mangles the fair game. And then we "need" laws to "protect" us from issues caused by state interference in the first place. So sick of it all.

I like the metaphor, because people try different combinations of meds until they reach a tolerable state that was better than the starting condition.

I think it's an incredibly succinct way of describing how libertarians look to non-libertarians "just let the free immune system decide" to hell with these medical "interventions."

Re: FCC moves ahead with Title II net neutrality rules in 3-2 party-line vote

#117

Our laws are very similar to our medicine. We take a pill that causes a side-effect, which requires a pill to fix that side-effect but causes another side effect... so on. We start with state interference of the free market in a small way, and it mangles the fair game. And then we "need" laws to "protect" us from issues caused by state interference in the first place. So sick of it all.

Regulation is a response to bad behaviour, not the cause of it.

We started with a free market. People acted poorly. In came regulation. Specifically: regulation that was not imposed on us as society, but of our own choosing.

Not to say that regulation can't cause issues of it's own. But regulation (believe it or not) is there for a reason, even if imperfect.

Actually, it's quite telling that you confused 'free market' with 'fair game'. Who says a free market is a fair market? Free market doesn't mean fair, it means free. Free to exploit people, to act monopolistically, to abuse your market power and inflict pain. It does not mean fair.

Re: FCC moves ahead with Title II net neutrality rules in 3-2 party-line vote

#118
This is exactly the kind of thing I point to when disaffected people say that voting for Democrat or Republican presidents makes no difference. I'm not saying either are roses, but one has clearly different results in unsexy-but-important issues like net neutrality.

Re: FCC moves ahead with Title II net neutrality rules in 3-2 party-line vote

#119
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether they do or do not have the authority isn't something that can be answered by anything but speculation until it's been tested in court, and I don't think any of the ISPs had enough to gain through packet prioritization that it was worth the risk of going to court.

Funny if the benefit was that negligible when it seems like they fought for it so hard originally.

Lobbying can be extremely cheap when compared to actually fighting a court battle
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