Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

cdn2.psychologytoday.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 124 posts

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#111

Post by jrnichols »

wincy wrote: post #66
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing in your yard isn't really "minimal supervision". You probably just didn't know how often your parents checked on you. And you would have known that your parent could just look outside and see you. As a 8 or 9-year-old, could you go to a friends house, to the store, or to school without parental supervision? Did you have safe bike lanes to do this? Was there safe public transportation? Sidewalks on busier stre…

I live in the USA and we picked our neighborhood specifically because of these things. My kid has been going to her friend’s houses by herself since she was 5. She goes down the block (sometimes a couple of blocks! Friends of friends) to her friend’s houses. I feel like we changed the culture in the neighborhood. Kids come out and go to our house and other houses all the time. It’s a good, safe neighborhood. Of cours…

> Some busybody lady

It does seem that women are by far the biggest offenders in this space. They're also the biggest consumers of murder/mystery and true crime podcasts & media.

I wonder if any studies have looked into why women are reacting like this more and more.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#112

Post by jrnichols »

mikewarot wrote: post #58

I blame Otis Toole[1], who confessed (and later recanted) to the kidnapping and murder of Adam Walsh. The hysteria Adam's father was able to create in the United States is astounding. I grew up before that happened, and yet, when it was my turn as a parent, I was still freaked out the first time my child wanted to walk home from a friends house, 2 blocks away about 10 years ago. When I was a kid, we were told to go o…

I remember a massive shift in my parents behavior (along with friends parents) after that movie aired. Previously normal things like letting your kids play in the toy section of Sears while parents shopped elsewhere quickly ended.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#113

Post by caconym_ »

b112 wrote: post #103
caconym_ wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your point is that biking locally is safe anywhere (excepting absurd scenarios) for children as long as they can be trusted to accurately internalize and unerringly obey a complex set of directives concerning which roads they are allowed to ride on, where and how to cross those they are not, and warnings of hazards they aren't experientially equipped to intuitively understand, then sure, I agree with you. However,…

From where I sit, you're making my point. An exaggerated emphasis on the complexity of a few "don't do that" rules, and the concern that blind obedience won't be forthcoming, is the malformed cause of helicopter parenting. Additionally, "kids are actually allowed outside" isn't really proof that taking away bikes isn't helicopter parenting. Look, I can't imagine we're going to agree here: * I believe a child is given…

> An exaggerated emphasis

What exactly do you think it is that I'm exaggerating? I've been polite here, but frankly—given your earlier assertion that "most places [you've] seen [...] have bike paths, and houses are typically in a separate area from main thoroughfares", I don't think you have any clue what you're talking about re: any neighborhood even vaguely resembling mine. Furthermore, your implicit assertion here that making any dangerous activity off limits for children of a certain age is helicopter parenting—abuse, in your words—is totally ridiculous.

Am I a helicopter parent because I refuse to allow my nine month old to crawl around in the street out front eating dog shit to learn how bad it tastes? Because I won't let my four year old help out in the kitchen by chopping zucchini with the extremely sharp chef's knife I barely trust myself with? Get a grip, man.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#114

Post by gobeavs »

wincy wrote: post #66
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing in your yard isn't really "minimal supervision". You probably just didn't know how often your parents checked on you. And you would have known that your parent could just look outside and see you. As a 8 or 9-year-old, could you go to a friends house, to the store, or to school without parental supervision? Did you have safe bike lanes to do this? Was there safe public transportation? Sidewalks on busier stre…

I live in the USA and we picked our neighborhood specifically because of these things. My kid has been going to her friend’s houses by herself since she was 5. She goes down the block (sometimes a couple of blocks! Friends of friends) to her friend’s houses. I feel like we changed the culture in the neighborhood. Kids come out and go to our house and other houses all the time. It’s a good, safe neighborhood. Of cours…

What about the neighborhood made you choose it?

I'd like that sort of neighborhood as well, but other than sidewalks and perhaps a nearby park it seems difficult to gauge character like that until you live there. And there are lots of neighborhoods that have the objective basics (sidewalks, low crime, etc).

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#115

Post by swalling »

michael1999 wrote: post #79
swalling wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One important thing that the NPR story completely glosses over is the component of race and class that permeates this issue. It’s not an accident that the prototypical mom of the “free range kid” movement is white and lives in a relatively wealthy neighborhood like the one mentioned in the story. Poor black and brown women are disproportionately targeted by child welfare authorities starting literally from birth. htt…

There’s no conflict here. Laws don’t usually change until after the culture shift. They often lag the culture by years or decades.

All too frequently laws in the US are completely out of step with the culture. For instance despite broad support for many reforms (abortion rights, term limits in Congress, marijuana legalization) nothing happens just because the culture has evolved.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#116

Post by swalling »

peanutcrisis wrote: post #73
swalling wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One important thing that the NPR story completely glosses over is the component of race and class that permeates this issue. It’s not an accident that the prototypical mom of the “free range kid” movement is white and lives in a relatively wealthy neighborhood like the one mentioned in the story. Poor black and brown women are disproportionately targeted by child welfare authorities starting literally from birth. htt…

Sociology departments in America are captured by the current moral fashion (identity politics). If it were me, I'd think twice before believing the research that you linked to.

If it is moral fashion to acknowledge and measure the obvious racial and economic discrimination in America then that’s a fashion which is morally good.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#117

Post by b112 »

caconym_ wrote: post #113
b112 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From where I sit, you're making my point. An exaggerated emphasis on the complexity of a few "don't do that" rules, and the concern that blind obedience won't be forthcoming, is the malformed cause of helicopter parenting. Additionally, "kids are actually allowed outside" isn't really proof that taking away bikes isn't helicopter parenting. Look, I can't imagine we're going to agree here: * I believe a child is given…

> An exaggerated emphasis What exactly do you think it is that I'm exaggerating? I've been polite here, but frankly—given your earlier assertion that "most places [you've] seen [...] have bike paths, and houses are typically in a separate area from main thoroughfares", I don't think you have any clue what you're talking about re: any neighborhood even vaguely resembling mine. Furthermore, your implicit assertion here…

This sort of hyperbole is what is wrong with US political discourse.

When I say:

"But the reality is, it is safe... just with conditionals, which I mentioned, and with instructions to child, and of course taking into account the specific child too"

and you ignore this context, you're missing vital context, and your reply loses value.

And when I say:

"Put another way, if you seek to cut off all possibility that a child can get in over their head, or do a risky thing, one is helicopter parenting."

and transition "a risky thing" to mean "every possible risky thing conceivable", you are again ignoring context, for that is already mitigated by my statements about the individual child.

Part of the growth of a child, is to allow risk, so that as an adult, that human will be able to gauge risk. Helicopter parenting over-reduces risk, and results in weaker adults as a result.

Let's look at the bike example, with rules. And as I discussed, a child being told that it's OK to bike in their neighborhood, but "don't go on that busy street, although you may cross at a light!"

Now you have to trust that child, while I should not have to say it, for I already did, and therefore you should keep the context in mind, "and of course taking into account the specific child too".

For example, I have seen 8 year olds with more sense than 12 year olds.

But back to the example. Now what happens if child decides to ride that busy road? Well, on very rare occasions, a child might break the rules. But naturally, that same child would not want to get caught and punished.

So what would a child do? Well, it rarely, if ever would break that rule. And that child would be damned careful, because they didn't want to get caught doing something wrong!

One of the reasons for punishment, is not to instill blind obedience to rules, but instead to instill risk management as a concept to children.

But I'm sure you'll take this response to indicate I believe toddlers should by flying fighter jets, instead of 10 year olds biking to a friend's house, with rules. So why even discuss any more?

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#118

Post by peanutcrisis »

swalling wrote: post #116
peanutcrisis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sociology departments in America are captured by the current moral fashion (identity politics). If it were me, I'd think twice before believing the research that you linked to.

If it is moral fashion to acknowledge and measure the obvious racial and economic discrimination in America then that’s a fashion which is morally good.

That is assuming that the moral fashion is actually doing that. Unfortunately, the moral fashion is more about starting with a predefined set of conclusions, then working backwards to justify those conclusions. I don't think we need to sell out our integrity to achieve a better society, or make false equivalence between liberal social justice and critical social justice, of which the latter is the current moral fashion.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#119

Post by 93po »

swalling wrote: post #116
peanutcrisis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sociology departments in America are captured by the current moral fashion (identity politics). If it were me, I'd think twice before believing the research that you linked to.

If it is moral fashion to acknowledge and measure the obvious racial and economic discrimination in America then that’s a fashion which is morally good.

It is actively harmful if they're measuring the wrong things and in the wrong way to come to an exact predefined conclusion instead of the one that is actually maximally good for children.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#120

Post by 93po »

amrocha wrote: post #46
SkyPuncher wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had plenty of access to play without driving anywhere. I spent hours and hours playing on my driveway and in my yard with minimal supervision.

I hope you see how sad that statement is. Kids in truly free places ride the train around the entire city by themselves.

"Free" is probably the wrong word. They get to do that in places that have a strong social fabric. The diversity of America combined with a capitalism-induced culture of pitting people against each other makes that impossible in the US.
Post reply on HN