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Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

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111–120 of 334 posts

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#111

“Many large multinationals use cost-sharing because it reflects the global nature of their business.” A comparable example might be Apple, where sales of my (american) app being sold from (american) servers somehow curiously involves the Republic of Ireland and their low corporate tax rates…

This is a common misconception but not actually true.

If Apple sells a copy of your app to an American customer the revenue from their royalty is booked to Apple Inc. (the U.S. company) and they would pay U.S. income tax on that sale.

The only time the sale would be booked to their Irish subsidiary is if the customer was located in Europe, or it would go to one of their other international subsidiaries depending on the specific location of the customer.

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At one point, it wasn’t an Irish company. Now technically the American company sold or transferred its IP to the Irish company. But it did so as a fiction, to avoid taxes, and neither I nor a government I help elect are obligated to honor that fiction.

That tax break "Double Irish Dutch Sandwich" is being phased out. It involves both those countries with one of the Irish companies managed out of Bermuda. It has shifted to other schemes now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feargal_O%27Rourke

You know things are nuts when one corporate accountant gets his own wiki article

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#113
post #43

Wow. “The IRS says Microsoft owes an additional $28.9 billion in tax for 2004 to 2013, plus penalties and interest.” No wonder why they’re talking about charging for windows 12 features, has to come from somewhere!

Maybe it could come from those huge executive salaries and bonuses that are many multiples higher than regular employees.

Why should they do that? They should simply add more annoying advertising and other BS to their products, especially Windows OS. What are customers going to do, go elsewhere or switch to another OS that doesn't have ads?

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#114
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no less fiction than any other contract or legal document.

The idea that the business' value is being created in Bermuda (in Google's case, but there will be similar things going on here) is a fiction. The idea that what creates the value is a single concrete piece of intellectual property is a fiction. The idea that that piece of intellectual policy was transferred to Bermuda is a fiction. The idea that what was transferred could be legitimately valued at zero when transfer…

I'd rather see the US declare that the IP is no longer promoting the progress of science and the useful arts and annul it.

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no less fiction than any other contract or legal document.

Yes it is, because this one negatively affects enough people that the law should make a special case to disallow it. Contracts are enforceable when laws say they are enforceable, but governments are free to change laws. If the government says it is a fiction, it is a fiction.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#116

Wonder why the stock hasn't taken a huge hit after the news. $28.9bln sounds like a lot. Maybe investors think MS will find a way to reduce the amount or pull of an extremely long term repayment plan? >As of September 30, 2023, we believe our allowances for income tax contingencies are adequate. We disagree with the proposed adjustments and will vigorously contest the NOPAs through the IRS’s administrative appeals of…

> Wonder why the stock hasn't taken a huge hit after the news. $28.9bln sounds like a lot. Maybe investors think MS will find a way to reduce the amount or pull of an extremely long term repayment plan? It’s very simple, the market doesn’t expect that MSFT will have to pay $28.9B in back taxes.

Or the market already priced it in?

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#117
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have ~$35 billion in cash per their cash flow statement: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MSFT/cash-flow?p=MSFT They could in effect write a check today for it.

LOL, like they would ever do that! They will make MS customers pay for it, if they can't convince the IRS to lower the bill significantly, which they probably can.

Of course they will make their customers pay for it. That's how companies work: the customers pay for the expenses of the company.

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#118
Here’s what’s going on:

-Companies that operate internationally make revenue and incur costs in many different countries.

-As a result, they owe taxes to many different national authorities.

-Each national authority has rules for how costs and revenues are accounted across borders.

-These rules are necessarily complex, because it’s often not clear how costs and asset transfers should be accounted from simple first principles.

-This is particularly important when accounting costs across countries, because taxable income is often based on your costs.

-For example in the US, Federal taxable income equals gross income MINUS the cost of goods sold.

-In a multinational, one critical question in figuring out costs is how to value transfer prices of goods, intangibles, and services among enterprises under common ownership.

-That is, if the U.S. division of company A and a division of company A in another country exchange assets or services, the question of how they price those goods to one another becomes important for tax reasons.

-Typically there’s a lot of accountants with spreadsheets or a software system where all this is calculated, monitored, invoiced, booked, and reconciled.

-Accounting and services for this is typically called “transfer pricing.”

-To determine how to account for these costs, each national regulator has very specific rules.

-The question is whether Microsoft adhered to these rules in how it accounted for costs and revenues between its U.S. and international entities.

-These disputes go through a very long back and forth process that often culminates in litigation, which itself can last years, or settlement.

-Microsoft says, “Because our subsidiaries shared in the costs of developing certain intellectual property, under those IRS cost-sharing regulations, the subsidiaries were also entitled to the related profits.”

-So it looks like the dispute centers around how to account for “the costs of developing intellectual property”, which can be hard if you’re developing software globally.

-Finally, there’s one aspect to consider when you see these $XXB figures. At the size of certain very big corporations like Microsoft or Apple, money does not behave like it does for you, or me, or even Sequoia Capital.

-Microsoft’s market cap is $2.4T. At that scale, money enters a kind of different state of matter.

-Money’s purpose is primarily to coordinate economic activity, especially when you’re talking about non-negligible amounts for multinationals.

-So payments among the revenue agencies of various countries and their very large private multinationals are in kind of a closed loop where they mainly have complex macroeconomic effects.

-For example, the effect of increasing taxes via heightened transfer pricing scrutiny mostly moves production from one sector to another (e.g. from consumer tech to health and defense.)

-The policy and finance folks pulling the levers understand how that works, and often have their own complex set of motives.

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#119
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they are, it’s a contractual agreement that is within the law. The fact that you don’t like it could not be less relevant, you don’t matter. If the government doesn’t like the law, they can (try) to change it but that has to go through the actual process. They are welcome to be as mad as they want that their law is poorly written but it is still their law.

Every law is judged with the intent behind the action... except for taxes which is the single exception I know of. And here the intent is pretty clear.

I hope (and think) that laws are judged primarily by their text and entirely so when it can be determined that the facts match the text even if many of us wish the text was different in light of these specific facts.

Criminal trials carefully lay out how the state believes the actions of the accused meet each required element of the crime. They don’t get to say “Foo definitely killed Bar. The law intends for people to not kill each other, and Foo meant to, therefore Foo is guilty of 1st degree murder.” Rather, they have to prove Foo’s actions met all required elements of the charge.

If you rear-end me while I’m stopped at a light, your intent doesn’t matter, only your actions. If you fail to stop for a school bus displaying red stop lights, your intent doesn’t matter.

I think the IRS step doctrine is relatively rare in legal interpretations, but at a minimum, it’s not “every other law is interpreted that way”.

I don’t take a position on Microsoft’s actions here, other than “if it can be shown to be plainly compliant with the law as written, I’m uncomfortable with the law being changed during interpretation such that it’s deemed to be non-compliant.”

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#120
post #102
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simple enough, an Irish company called Apple licenses its very valuable IP to its entities in cheaper countries so they can do things like manufacturing, server farms, customer support. (It also carries on these some of these functions in Ireland, as it happens, and pays a ton of tax at the relatively high income tax rates there.) It's frankly curious to me when a multinational chooses to base itself anywhere le…

> "a ton of tax at the relatively high income tax rates there" Firstly, that's not Apple paying income tax, that's their employees. Secondly, they don't pay much in the way of corporation or other taxes that usually apply because of a sweetheart deal (Google also has one IIRC), which is why much of the EU is up in arms about the Irish government's behaviour here, that effectively allows these multinationals to operat…

"Sweetheart deals" are not allowed in the EU, and whether or not there was one in this case is a matter of controversy[0]. In fact the EU courts have decided that there was no breach of law by Apple, though a further appeal maybe yet be made. It's easy to sling around accusations like this, but it's important to check the facts at the same time.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%27s_EU_tax_dispute

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