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Unions work

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Re: Unions work

#111

Post by [deleted] »

bko wrote: post #94
braza wrote: post #43

Kudos for the WGA for the achievement. I partially agree with the statement that unions work. From what I see Unions are great and the current model works in situations where there are 2 monopolies, a monopoly of a work place and monopoly of workforce. In this case the WGA is the monopoly of workforce and the Hollywood is the monopoly of workplace. Along the history I saw that this dynamic worked and got advancements…

I disagree that unions work. It's mainly due to the fact that it treats everyone more or less the same based on some formula. For instance, they make decisions based on an observable set of factors like how long someone has been there and what education and training they have. But anyone that's worked in the workforce knows this is very limited. People aren't the same. Sometimes someone has been in an org forever but…

[deleted]

Re: Unions work

#112

Post by eric_cc »

nonethewiser wrote: post #83
bastardoperator wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies have shown time and time again that a 4 day work week results in higher productivity and happier employees. Happy employees also do better work.

No they have not. Studies by motivated parties show in some cases there are diminishing returns. It's a non-sensical argument. If a 4 day work week is more productive than a 5 day work week it means the 5th days is producing negative work. You could literally do nothing every Friday and you would not be less productive than a 4 day work week.

> It's a non-sensical argument.

Your take is equally non-sensical. There is no magical constant unit of time that represents maximum productivity. It’s all relative and fluid. It’s based on many many variables. And even if such a time existed for one person in one company for one week, it wouldn’t be neatly packaged like “40 hours”. It would likely seem random like 34 hours 20 minutes and 25 seconds.

Arguing over such a universal time is as much a waste a time as arguing over the perfect diet. It’s relative.

Re: Unions work

#113

Post by timbit42 »

hgdfhgfdhgdf wrote: post #87
timbit42 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you looked into worker cooperatives? Ocean Spray is an example in the US. Mondragon is an example of one in Spain that has tens of thousands of workers and has existed for many decades.

I suspect you are not familiar with farmer cooperatives. They are not employee cooperatives. They are corporatives of private farmers.

I wasn't talking about farmer cooperatives. Worker cooperatives are owned and run by the workers, thus the name. Certainly some cooperatives are not worker cooperatives.

Re: Unions work

#114

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

hgdfhgfdhgdf wrote: post #82
bastardoperator wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies have shown time and time again that a 4 day work week results in higher productivity and happier employees. Happy employees also do better work.

If that were true, why isn't every company adopting 4 day work weeks?

How many have even tried it? Companies are profit-seeking but that doesn't mean they will automatically make correct profitable decisions at every juncture. They're led by humans who generally make small conservative changes based on intuition. We see companies languish, stagnate, and miss critical strategic opportunities all the time.

Re: Unions work

#115

Post by timbit42 »

Aunche wrote: post #70
timbit42 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you looked into worker cooperatives? Ocean Spray is an example in the US. Mondragon is an example of one in Spain that has tens of thousands of workers and has existed for many decades.

I wouldn't characterize any agricultural co-op like Ocean Spray as the same category as a worker co-op like Mondragon. There is a very distinct line between a farmer, who's an owner, and a farm worker, who handles most of the day-to-day operations.

Yes, I know a company in my country where the store owners are in a cooperative but the employees are not.

Re: Unions work

#116

Post by Keegs »

VancouverMan wrote: post #88
braza wrote: post #43

Kudos for the WGA for the achievement. I partially agree with the statement that unions work. From what I see Unions are great and the current model works in situations where there are 2 monopolies, a monopoly of a work place and monopoly of workforce. In this case the WGA is the monopoly of workforce and the Hollywood is the monopoly of workplace. Along the history I saw that this dynamic worked and got advancements…

The impact of unionization on the customers/consumers should be considered, too. My experiences dealing with unionized workforces in Canada as a customer/consumer have generally not been good at all. Such workers often exhibit tremendous inefficiency, a lack of care, and disinterest. This results in low-quality service/work, and a bad experience for the customers/consumers involved. This is particularly noticeable wh…

The things you attribute to unionization are, I think, a bit of a stretch. Hollywood especially. Actors and writers have been organized for a long time. Smaller studios like A24 with a reputation for making good movies when larger studios milk existing franchises still use organized labor.

Re: Unions work

#117

Post by specialist »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #72
braza wrote: post #43

Kudos for the WGA for the achievement. I partially agree with the statement that unions work. From what I see Unions are great and the current model works in situations where there are 2 monopolies, a monopoly of a work place and monopoly of workforce. In this case the WGA is the monopoly of workforce and the Hollywood is the monopoly of workplace. Along the history I saw that this dynamic worked and got advancements…

Are you implying that it is unions that cause corporations to seek offshoring, automation etc.? From where I stand it’s a constant race to extract more from workers and unions and possibly legislation are some of the very few forces impeding it.

Yup. Capital pushes to commodify skills and labor.

We as "knowledge workers" know this in our bones.

Now that we've digitized and automated blue collar work, we're tackling white collar work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

Re: Unions work

#118

Post by bastardoperator »

nonethewiser wrote: post #83
bastardoperator wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies have shown time and time again that a 4 day work week results in higher productivity and happier employees. Happy employees also do better work.

No they have not. Studies by motivated parties show in some cases there are diminishing returns. It's a non-sensical argument. If a 4 day work week is more productive than a 5 day work week it means the 5th days is producing negative work. You could literally do nothing every Friday and you would not be less productive than a 4 day work week.

What's nonsensical is your bad take. First and foremost, if workers say they're happier, you have no method of disputing that and every study that captures the employees perspective is literally saying the exact same thing. Find me some data that says humans want to work longer hours, we will all wait...

It also sounds like you're not familiar with simple ideas like Parkinson’s Law. Listen to yourself, you don't think people are fucking off at work? It's business hours and you're on hacker news not doing work, case and point.

Re: Unions work

#119

Post by specialist »

billy99k wrote: post #86
Spivak wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you implying that it is unions that cause corporations to seek offshoring, automation etc.? Well that's at least the spooky scary threat that companies use to get people to not join union so my bet is that it's total bullshit and if they could already offshore their workers and factories they would have done so already. Milk those higher wages and benefits while they're still here because they won't change the…

That isn't the point. When the union is involved, they keep demanding hire wages and benefits and it gets to the point where companies are better-off offshoring. Just look at the automotive industry. They have not only been offshoring, but the unions have strangled them to the point where it nearly destroyed the industry. I will only buy non-US cars as a result of this (mostly because of poor qualit).

Accelerating inequity and record corporate profits are just a coincidence?

Re: Unions work

#120

Post by eric_cc »

nonethewiser wrote: post #104
eric_cc wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> working 32 hours is not as productive as 40 hours. Absolute statements like this on this topic are invalid. It’s relative and fluid and not something you can prove scientifically and definitively.

It's safe to say 32 hours of work does not produce more than 40 hours. The gray area is the point at which there are diminishing returns. Is that between 32 and 40 hours, or more? And how much do they diminish?

> It's safe to say 32 hours of work does not produce more than 40 hours.

This is too simple. 32 hours of huge output may produce more than 40 hours of light output. If the machine/human output is a constant, then sure you’re correct. But that’s not true. And that’s my point. It’s relative and fluid. It’s relative to the work, the individual, the health of the individual, the weather that day, and on and on.

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