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I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

adayinthelifeof.nl

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Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#111
post #59

OP here. Thanks for the pos/neg/neutral comments everybody. Some remarks: Yes, there are a lot of browsers out there where I can contribute to which would be more efficient. But that would result in just a few browsers instead of a lot of browsers. I'm all for the last one, as this would give people options. This IS a pet project. I never told anyone otherwise. I would start writing it even when I wasn't fed up with…

You could do something back then, and it’s the same only thing you can do now: work with others. Drop the egocentrism, because collective action is the only way out, and it is possible.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#112
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and that it will be compatible with whatever Google decides to add to theirs There are plenty of respectable people who maintain "home pages" with much simpler HTML than what is possible, and news.ycombinator.com gets a lot of love for keeping its classic look. All this to say, I'd like if the people who have a lot of overlapping agreement on this would agree on a subset to use, and I'd be happy with a browser that…

I have a similar idea of a minimal html browser, which was dismissed by the gemini authors. Should be reasonably doable if you don't implement all web 2.0. No css - user decides appearance, no javascript - it would require full web 2.0 anyway, and a bit of webcompat, start with , , and there you go.

Isn't it called `netsurf` already?

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#113
post #61

I feel like this is something which a government should be developing and funding. I understand that governments like to make rules and hope that the market responds with something that matches their vision, but as the EU demonstrated this just ends up with websites with user-consent pop-ups. A worse experience for everyone, and bad actors just find a way around it anyway. Rather than relying on legislation to play w…

User consent popups are awesome. I never agree to anything, and I know exactly which sites are spying on me and which are OK.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#114
I think the way forward is to let the HTML, CSS, JS Stack finally die and be replaced with something more appropriate. It's an ever growing mess of hacks and compatibility layers to make a technology do something it was never intended to do. Heck, your browser now supports USB.

We need something that's designed from the ground up to be a remotely loaded application layer for operating systems. But to get to that point, we need to throw away the decades of legacy requirements.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#115
Is there some reason why browsers aren't split into a million pieces and worked on seperately? Most browser projects I see are tackled like giant monolithic projects.

For example, CSS seems like a constraint solver that has nothing to do with parsing HTTP requests. Even parsing CSS itself has nothing to do with laying it out. Rendering is another step altogether that also has very little to do with anything. I can see these things being split into standalone and testable libraries with limited scope. Maybe I'm wrong though. I often am.

A "browser" seems like an "operating system". There is so much going on and I can see how a "browser" could be made out of myriad existing components in various amounts. A bit like the various Linux distributions and their particular choices of underlying tools and frameworks. You don't do it all at once, you got a million separate small chunks working together (if you're a Unix kind of guy..)

Maybe we should all work on creating as much small composable components as possible and then let the other guys slap a nice UI on top of it and put a bow on it. This is probably not practical, but a guy can dream.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#116
post #70

I can relate. I have also stopped following the news, and almost all social media as well. I don't know if it is an age thing, or just the state of the world. But the past year, opening a news site have given me stress symptoms. And news sites love to feed it. Someone burns a koran? It is only news if it is reported. If someone does it in their basement alone, it would not matter at all. But instead it becomes a glob…

Be careful what you wish for. What if the news didn't report on corruption? Because you can find a whole lot of places where the news won't do that, and you'll know it only from gossip or involvement. What if the news didn't report on tragic events? Let's say a natural disaster or a horrific crime happens in your community, and the news media is just silent, pretending like nothing happened. I bet a lot of people would think it very strange if news media didn't report on these negative events, or if international news didn't report on the war.

> Someone burns a koran? It is only news if it is reported. If someone does it in their basement alone, it would not matter at all.

Yes, of course. But that's exactly what a protest is. It has nothing to do with the burning of the book itself, and everything to do with doing it in public and letting people know. Even if you live in the most rigid dictatorship, you can criticize the president as much as you want in your own basement. It becomes something completely different when you do it on a public square with a crowd watching or participating. But still there are those who want to make what happened in Tiananmen in 1989 become not news. Then it wouldn't matter at all, as you wrote.

As for Quran burnings, a person in my country - that is not Islamic - was sentenced for spitting at and burning the Quran as a protest against a recent Islamic massacre against people in his group. Imagine the situation: Your people are being killed because of a holy book, but you are not allowed to protest against that book. In that case the news media chose to be silent about the protest and about the sentencing of the man. Just an example.

The bigger problem with news media in my opinion is delivery. I can't stand any TV news, because the way the reporters talk is just sickening. They have adopted this kind of venomous and angry voice that just reeks with contempt against the viewer. I remember many years ago I had been out on travels and spent months far away from TVs. I the airport there was a TV with CNN on broadcast, and I was just shocked at how hateful the voices and demeanor of the presenters were. Like, why would anybody voluntarily watch and listen to this? But if you're used to it you might not notice.

But focus on negativity does also get exaggerated in TV news, such as when they are showing clips of traffic accidents far away, or floods in foreign countries that have floods every year, as well as murders in foreign countries that have no international impact. I think it is like you say to keep people in a negative mindset, because that makes them weak and ready to be influenced, not least by advertising that promises to make them feel good if they just buy this product.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#117
post #59

OP here. Thanks for the pos/neg/neutral comments everybody. Some remarks: Yes, there are a lot of browsers out there where I can contribute to which would be more efficient. But that would result in just a few browsers instead of a lot of browsers. I'm all for the last one, as this would give people options. This IS a pet project. I never told anyone otherwise. I would start writing it even when I wasn't fed up with…

If you’re doing it as a learning experience, then more power to you. But be honest with yourself about your motivations. As someone who usually takes on too much, and makes similar rationalizations, the road can be fun but it’s not going to a destination where you finish something. Don’t repeat my mistakes, examine the whys carefully.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#118
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and that it will be compatible with whatever Google decides to add to theirs There are plenty of respectable people who maintain "home pages" with much simpler HTML than what is possible, and news.ycombinator.com gets a lot of love for keeping its classic look. All this to say, I'd like if the people who have a lot of overlapping agreement on this would agree on a subset to use, and I'd be happy with a browser that…

I have a similar idea of a minimal html browser, which was dismissed by the gemini authors. Should be reasonably doable if you don't implement all web 2.0. No css - user decides appearance, no javascript - it would require full web 2.0 anyway, and a bit of webcompat, start with , , and there you go.

I would not want a simple browser to replace gemini, but I would be happy to use a simple web browser in addition to gemini. It would be nice to only have to fire up a big bloated real browser for doing banking and such things.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#119

Is there some reason why browsers aren't split into a million pieces and worked on seperately? Most browser projects I see are tackled like giant monolithic projects. For example, CSS seems like a constraint solver that has nothing to do with parsing HTTP requests. Even parsing CSS itself has nothing to do with laying it out. Rendering is another step altogether that also has very little to do with anything. I can se…

Depends on what you mean by "browsers". Take the V8 JavaScript engine for example, it's used in Chrome but can also run stand-alone (I think node.js uses it).

I'm not involved in this space at all but I would guess that the main problem with writing browsers isn't that they're all obfuscated monoliths, but that the amount of work to create an entire browser composed of solidly interconnected parts is still a huge amount of work, because of exactly what you said, it's almost an operating system, at least when you look like fully featured browsers like Firefox and Chrome.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#120
post #59

OP here. Thanks for the pos/neg/neutral comments everybody. Some remarks: Yes, there are a lot of browsers out there where I can contribute to which would be more efficient. But that would result in just a few browsers instead of a lot of browsers. I'm all for the last one, as this would give people options. This IS a pet project. I never told anyone otherwise. I would start writing it even when I wasn't fed up with…

This is great. Would you be interested to add support for a custom blockchain-based DNS instead of the current centralized hierarchical mess? I've been thinking about this a lot and it's clear that a multi-blockchain-based solution would be perfect for this (and far simpler than the current system). Each blockchain could have its own top level domain. People would buy domains using the blockchain's own tokens on the blockchain itself. The browser would just discover its own peers and query any node in the blockchain to convert domain names into IP addresses. The browser could check the results against known public keys on that chain to verify that the record is legitimate.

Blockchains are great for this use case as they are infinitely scalable in terms of reads (since you can always add more nodes which are exact cryptographically-verifiable replicas). While blockchains are constrained in terms of writes, this problem is dealt with via a transaction fee which increases with demand so it is naturally DoS-resistant and doesn't require special skills or trusted parties to operate.

Anyway, the current centralized DNS system of hierarchical resolvers is also constrained in terms of writes but it feels ad-hoc with many centralized entities which are given a substantial amount of trust.

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