People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time • Hacker News Board

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#111

Post by throwaway290 » Wed, Sep 20, 2023, 6:09 AM UTC

I_am_uncreative wrote: post #110

throwaway290 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the countries you mention have ages old strong own culture to preserve really (except first nations but for various reasons their culture is not US or Canada culture). So Japan's policy is not unreasonable. You can become a proper Japanese if you want to (are willing to culturally integrate), it's just that not many people do. Without it you'd be trading off death of country for death of culture. Contrast to…

> You can become a proper Japanese if you want to I'm really not sure about that. I'm a white man with red hair, I'm pretty sure I'd always be "otherized" in Japan, as would most westerners.

Check out the video linked. That guy is similar.

The question is legal equality, which seems possible and not depend on color of your hair.

Of course some Japanese will treat you differently. They will also otherize and treat differently even their fellow ethnic Japanese of other social classes. But I think this is not really different from British, Russian or many other cultures (maybe except US or Canada which are more melting pot like). It's just harder to notice from inside the culture.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#112

Post by rayiner » Wed, Sep 20, 2023, 7:21 AM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #108

ddd00001 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lee Kuan Yew's whole thesis re: Singapore was that multicultural societies need strict laws and punishments for those that step out of line because people don't naturally look out for each other. He learned this from going back to the UK in the 60s and seeing how social trust had degraded due to immigration.

Singapore is a counterexample to the grandparent post. It's very much a "heterogenous" culture, if the word "heterogenous" has any meaning at all, with four (!) official languages and a lot of immigration. It could not be described as "chaotic" or "disorderly." The unsubtle explanation from someone who is not a huge Singapore fan (or from someone who is?) might be that this is simply the power of well-engineered, hig…

Singapore is 75% Chinese, and immigration levels are calibrated to maintain that ratio. Accounting for religious diversity, US hasn’t been as homogenous as Singapore since the 1800s. And Singapore is also a country where the top-down authoritarian government is run based on the vision of LKY, who himself is distinctly inspired by a mix of Confucianism and Anglo culture. The other cultural groups are given wide latitude within their sphere of influence, but none have any imprint on the government and institutions. It’s like if Americans agreed that WASP culture would always dominate the government and civil institutions.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#113

Post by skissane » Wed, Sep 20, 2023, 8:24 AM UTC

I_am_uncreative wrote: post #109

skissane wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, the US and Canada are the only two first world countries not slated for long-term population decline due to immigration. Australia's immigration rate, on a per capita basis, is more than double that of the US, and somewhat ahead of Canada's. [0] It has a lower total fertility rate [1] than the US (1.73 for Australia vs 1.84 for US), but still a higher TFR than Canada (1.57), and I suspect having double the im…

And yet, Australia's population is slated to decline, while the US is not.

> And yet, Australia's population is slated to decline, while the US is not.

Slated to decline according to whom? According to the most recent projections published by Australia's national statistics agency, [0] Australia's population is projected to continuously increase through 2066, ending up at somewhere between 37 and 49 million (compared to around 26 million today). The only projection of theirs according to which it will decline is the highly unrealistic "zero net migration" scenario.

[0] https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/population/populati...

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#114

Post by justin66 » Wed, Sep 20, 2023, 12:16 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #112

justin66 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore is a counterexample to the grandparent post. It's very much a "heterogenous" culture, if the word "heterogenous" has any meaning at all, with four (!) official languages and a lot of immigration. It could not be described as "chaotic" or "disorderly." The unsubtle explanation from someone who is not a huge Singapore fan (or from someone who is?) might be that this is simply the power of well-engineered, hig…

Singapore is 75% Chinese, and immigration levels are calibrated to maintain that ratio. Accounting for religious diversity, US hasn’t been as homogenous as Singapore since the 1800s. And Singapore is also a country where the top-down authoritarian government is run based on the vision of LKY, who himself is distinctly inspired by a mix of Confucianism and Anglo culture. The other cultural groups are given wide latitu…

> Accounting for religious diversity, US hasn’t been as homogenous as Singapore since the 1800s.

This didn't jibe so I looked up the figures and I still don't understand why you'd write this. To be honest I don't understand why you've written most of what you've written on this thread, but, did you mean to write "ignoring religious diversity...?" The US is 63% Christian. The largest religious group in Singapore is the Buddhists, at... 31%? And unlike in the United States, two minority groups in Singapore (Christians, Muslims) have strong representation in the population, whereas in the US, not so much.

Which I guess would leave things like language, of which they have four official ones and quite a few others, with a bilingual education mandate that demands everyone learn English but recognizes that they've probably got their own as well, IIRC.

There's racial makeup, if that matters to you (I get the feeling it does). In terms of cultural dominance I would reject the idea that there's something massively different about a 69% white majority vs a 74% Chinese majority. The second on their list is Malay at 13.5% and the second on our list is Black at 12.4% and my God why are we even having this conversation

I'm pretty sure the explanation for the undeniable order there is the completely obvious explanation that does not involve "homogeneity" or immigration. It's the authoritarian system of government.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#115

Post by ffgjgf1 » Wed, Sep 20, 2023, 4:54 PM UTC

throwaway290 wrote: post #101

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not its root You might as well say that US culture has its roots in ancient Greece or Rome, or Reformation age Europe and claim it’s hundreds or even thousands years old. It would be worth about as much. But yeah I agree with you in the sense that US/Canada are constantly affected by a constant influx of people belonging to different cultures. Had there been barely any immigration after ~1800 American culture would…

> You might as well say that US culture has its roots in ancient Greece or Rome, or Reformation age Europe and claim it’s hundreds or even thousands years old. No. Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Slavs, Turks, Arabs, Mongols etc, different peoples have their respective roots for sure , but those roots are elsewhere. Once you move across the ocean and mingle with a bunch of others coming from radically different backgrounds…

One might argue that Christian European culture is a thing and that US was/is part of it.

> From inside one of those new cultures (who are cool and unique in their own ways, sure) it can be easy to miss the significance.

A lot of assumptions.. I live in Europe and belong to supposedly one of the fairly ancient cultures according to this definition. It doesn’t seem any less silly to me because of that.

Unless Japan is supposedly exceptionally special somehow in that regard? I don’t think it is, most unique things about its culture have their roots in the 19th or 20th century (just like European countries or the US).

> Japanese settled Japan by skimming Wikipedia but that I'm not sure

The Ainu might have. The settlers/invaders from China or Korea whose culture later developed into what we know as Japan only began arriving in the archipelago around 300 BC (so less ancient than the Greeks or Romans). Also much closer to the establishment of US than to first nation people migrating into the Americas.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#116

Post by ddd00001 » Wed, Sep 20, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #108

ddd00001 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lee Kuan Yew's whole thesis re: Singapore was that multicultural societies need strict laws and punishments for those that step out of line because people don't naturally look out for each other. He learned this from going back to the UK in the 60s and seeing how social trust had degraded due to immigration.

Singapore is a counterexample to the grandparent post. It's very much a "heterogenous" culture, if the word "heterogenous" has any meaning at all, with four (!) official languages and a lot of immigration. It could not be described as "chaotic" or "disorderly." The unsubtle explanation from someone who is not a huge Singapore fan (or from someone who is?) might be that this is simply the power of well-engineered, hig…

[flagged]

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#117

Post by throwaway290 » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 6:33 AM UTC

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #115

throwaway290 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might as well say that US culture has its roots in ancient Greece or Rome, or Reformation age Europe and claim it’s hundreds or even thousands years old. No. Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Slavs, Turks, Arabs, Mongols etc, different peoples have their respective roots for sure , but those roots are elsewhere. Once you move across the ocean and mingle with a bunch of others coming from radically different backgrounds…

One might argue that Christian European culture is a thing and that US was/is part of it. > From inside one of those new cultures (who are cool and unique in their own ways, sure) it can be easy to miss the significance. A lot of assumptions.. I live in Europe and belong to supposedly one of the fairly ancient cultures according to this definition. It doesn’t seem any less silly to me because of that. Unless Japan is…

Good point, it's special due to isolation, many countries in Europe do have traditions but no such policies like Japan's, to integrate migrants from wherever (slavic, middle eastern, african asian, other european countries etc.), so those cultures are now quite diluted.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#118

Post by rayiner » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 8:14 AM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #114

rayiner wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore is 75% Chinese, and immigration levels are calibrated to maintain that ratio. Accounting for religious diversity, US hasn’t been as homogenous as Singapore since the 1800s. And Singapore is also a country where the top-down authoritarian government is run based on the vision of LKY, who himself is distinctly inspired by a mix of Confucianism and Anglo culture. The other cultural groups are given wide latitu…

> Accounting for religious diversity, US hasn’t been as homogenous as Singapore since the 1800s. This didn't jibe so I looked up the figures and I still don't understand why you'd write this. To be honest I don't understand why you've written most of what you've written on this thread, but, did you mean to write " ignoring religious diversity...?" The US is 63% Christian. The largest religious group in Singapore is t…

If you compare like with like, the US is more diverse on almost every dimension except language. Catholic/Protestant is a major dividing line. And if you are going to say “white” is a category, then Singapore is virtually 100% “Asian.” If you want to talk about ethnic groups, then the largest US ethnic group is German Americans, which are only about 25% of the population.

And yes the homogeneity helps Singapore’s orderliness. The overwhelming majority of the population is Asian, who in general are more collectivist and orderly than say Italians.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#119

Post by RestlessMind » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #102

RestlessMind wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm just thinking there might be more solutions to consider than "make more children". Automation, robotic assistance, age reversal etc. Age reversal is interesting. If that happens and everyone can be in their 20's forever, nothing like it. But automation or robots? Close your eyes and imagine a town where the youngest person is 68yo with only robots to take care of the entire town. That scenario seems fucking dys…

Dystopian… until you are 68 yourself then it sounds pretty cool

You mean, you find the idea of you being 68 and the youngest person in your town a cool one? Which is why I said YMMV. For me, it is a terrible nightmare.