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Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

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Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#111

Post by srl »

groby_b wrote: post #100
srl wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it was a case of people shrugging it off, if this sort of thing could occur without anyone batting an eyelash... I'd have a lot more second-thoughts about my career path for one, and I'd have turned away from the start-up community on top of that. I'm not suggesting we shrug it off, not batting an eyelash. It's completely idiotic and should be mocked appropriately. But I'm guessing (with high confidence) that if…

You won't get to that discussion without calling out the problems at hand. I believe we are much closer to being able to taking that step than we were even a few years ago - I recall quite a few conferences were open misogyny was 'cool' - but we need to keep calling out this nonsense. There are strangely still quite a few people who believe that sexism is not an issue.

> You won't get to that discussion without calling out the problems at hand.

Exactly! And my claim is that the larger, more subtle "women just aren't good at science/technology" problem, is now more pressing than the blatant misogyny, and furthermore that the larger problem cannot be solved simply by calling out misogyny. It is a distinct problem - the two may influence each other, but the one will not go away just because we all know about and hate the other.

I guess that's actually really my main gripe with most of the talk here - people are conflating what to me are two very separate problems, and, as far as I can see, not doing anything to solve the bigger one. And it makes me mad.

I know a great many people who would be instantly disgusted at the sort of thing this moron put on the flier, as you all were, and yet have subtly and not-so-subtly showed the bias that women can simply never be as good as programming as men can. (In one particular case, fairly openly, to the person's face - and that person, one of the best programmers I know, is no longer planning to go into computer science, despite my best efforts to convince her otherwise.) So I'm convinced that open misogyny and "women belong in the kitchen" are, at least in the tech community, separate problems, and the latter needs to be attacked directly.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#112

Post by srl »

einhverfr wrote: post #92
DarkShikari wrote: post #55

Othering . Get that word into your head, and keep it there. Othering . Othering is when you make someone feel as if they don't belong in a community, that they're different from other people there. Making stupid (racist) Asian jokes about the only Chinese-American member of your team. Writing flyers that assume that your entire audience consists of a certain type of heterosexual man. Even something small, like consta…

A couple points.... Keep in mind that I may be different because I start to worry about the people I am with if I fit in too much. I actually prefer to be a liminal figure (look it up). First, humor is a way of managing tensions. It can create, dissolve, and transform tension from one form into another. One of the real problem trends in America today, IMO, is rewarding hypersensitivity to taking offense. The problem…

More good points, from a more practical, small-scale perspective than I can give. Thank you.

I find it interesting that you describe yourself as preferring to be a liminal figure, as do I (know that I know the word - which my spell-checker still does not), and we're both getting DV'd to oblivion on this one.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#113

Post by niete »

ugh wrote: post #46
rjdagost wrote: post #35

While I don't condone the choice of words used in the ad I am underwhelmed at the "offensive" content. If you are offended by this you need to get some thicker skin.

It’s blatant sexism and misogyny. That is always offensive. I’m not sure why you don’t seem to have a problem with sexism and misogyny. That’s all being offended means: I have a problem with you saying stuff like that. That seems reasonable enough to me. No, whoever is offended by this is exactly right. They do not need a thicker skin.

"misogyny" has become such a buzzword it is meaningless. I imagine that it is true that some men really do _hate_ women, but the 'offensive' sentence could have come from a broad spectrum of perspectives about women.

Now, I know feminists have tried to redefine the term into [anything they don't like], but that is a pretty good illustration of what intellectually dishonest offense seekers they are.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#114

Post by ugh »

niete wrote: post #113
ugh wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s blatant sexism and misogyny. That is always offensive. I’m not sure why you don’t seem to have a problem with sexism and misogyny. That’s all being offended means: I have a problem with you saying stuff like that. That seems reasonable enough to me. No, whoever is offended by this is exactly right. They do not need a thicker skin.

"misogyny" has become such a buzzword it is meaningless. I imagine that it is true that some men really do _hate_ women, but the 'offensive' sentence could have come from a broad spectrum of perspectives about women. Now, I know feminists have tried to redefine the term into [anything they don't like], but that is a pretty good illustration of what intellectually dishonest offense seekers they are.

Yeah, and you are a Niete, niete.

Do you think the kid who calls everyone she dislikes gay – and thus uses homophobic language – really fears gay people? No, because that's not really what that word means, even if the dictionary says it means that. That’s how language works. Misogyny describes a very specific kind of sexism, and that’s just the case here.

Peace out from a dishonest offense seeker.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#115

Post by niete »

MartinCron wrote: post #67
rjdagost wrote: post #35

While I don't condone the choice of words used in the ad I am underwhelmed at the "offensive" content. If you are offended by this you need to get some thicker skin.

Do you really not think that listing "women" as a "perk" isn't genuinely offensive to reasonable people? I'm a straight white Caucasian male and the whole thought of that in a software context embarrasses the hell out of me.

Yes, because the only ones who ever seem to get offended are part of the in group that has been extensively trained to spot "offense", an ability of which they are most proud and seek every opportunity to show it off.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#116

Post by xibernetik »

srl wrote: post #94
xibernetik wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fixing stupid mistakes like this is a lot more straight-forward than figuring out how to encourage young girls to participate in science - it's a completely different order of complexity and the former can be acted upon immediately and effectively whilst the latter cannot. It's the difference between having a recycling bin in your house and changing the idealization of suburbia and car-culture in North America. It do…

> If it was a case of people shrugging it off, if this sort of thing could occur without anyone batting an eyelash... I'd have a lot more second-thoughts about my career path for one, and I'd have turned away from the start-up community on top of that. I'm not suggesting we shrug it off, not batting an eyelash. It's completely idiotic and should be mocked appropriately. But I'm guessing (with high confidence) that if…

You're guessing wrong. I wouldn't feel more welcome (nor do I understand why I should feel more welcome as a result of that sort of discussion) but I don't speak for all women. I want it to be a given that a woman can be in an engineering/tech environment, and that it's No Big Deal. Making a big deal out of prejudice and fighting societal conceptions just puts me off -- if I was into that sort of thing, I'd be browsing some sort of sociology site or attending conferences on the matter.

While I'd love a deep, interesting discussion on the matter... I love deep, interesting discussions. Just because it's about my gender doesn't mean it's more welcoming to me. That aside, I fail to see how women would be much more likely to get involved as a result of discussion on HN -- the issues run a lot deeper than a lack of conversation on the matter.

In response to your later comments, I absolutely agree that the subtle prejudice is a huge problem -- but I don't know if this is the right venue to attack it, or if there even exists a correct venue or method. (Perhaps it's just a matter of time.) I do know that a sudden influx of articles on "making women feel welcome" and "breaking prejudice against women in STEM" would alienate me for one, and most certainly cause me to leave if they became of regular prominence on the front page.

EDIT: A good explanation of my negative feelings towards bringing more attention to the matter is the current top comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3732078

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#117

Post by MartinCron »

niete wrote: post #115
MartinCron wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really not think that listing "women" as a "perk" isn't genuinely offensive to reasonable people? I'm a straight white Caucasian male and the whole thought of that in a software context embarrasses the hell out of me.

Yes, because the only ones who ever seem to get offended are part of the in group that has been extensively trained to spot "offense", an ability of which they are most proud and seek every opportunity to show it off.

Do you really think that, or are you trolling? Serious question.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#118

Post by avand »

Hey, I'm one of the co-founders of Sqoot. We're a small startup trying to do big things. Sometimes we trip and fall. This is one of those times. In hindsight, our language was reckless & immature. Please accept our apology:

http://blog.sqoot.com/we-can-do-better-an-apology-from-sqoot

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#119

Post by avand »

srl wrote: post #69

Ugh... the reactions to these idiotic, misogynistic statements always feel overblown. Yes, sexism is a pretty big problem in the industry (and adjacent ones). But you're not going to fix it by griping about a horny 20-something saying something stupid about women (surprise!). You're not even going to help. You're just going to walk away with a "there I helped" endorphin rush and go back to not really caring for the v…

Hey, I'm one of the co-founders of Sqoot. We're a small startup trying to do big things. Sometimes we trip and fall. This is one of those times. In hindsight, our language was reckless & immature. Please accept our apology:

http://blog.sqoot.com/we-can-do-better-an-apology-from-sqoot

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#120

Post by Czarnian »

xibernetik wrote: post #116
srl wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it was a case of people shrugging it off, if this sort of thing could occur without anyone batting an eyelash... I'd have a lot more second-thoughts about my career path for one, and I'd have turned away from the start-up community on top of that. I'm not suggesting we shrug it off, not batting an eyelash. It's completely idiotic and should be mocked appropriately. But I'm guessing (with high confidence) that if…

You're guessing wrong. I wouldn't feel more welcome (nor do I understand why I should feel more welcome as a result of that sort of discussion) but I don't speak for all women. I want it to be a given that a woman can be in an engineering/tech environment, and that it's No Big Deal. Making a big deal out of prejudice and fighting societal conceptions just puts me off -- if I was into that sort of thing, I'd be browsi…

I imagine "Don't make women feel unwelcome." would go a long way towards reducing the need for "Make women feel welcome."
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