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StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

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Re: StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

#111
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Star Citizen is trying to handle physics for objects in stations/planets/ships, debris, asteroids etc. A couple orders of magnitude more objects, I think. Note that I don't play or follow either game, but I think you're making an unreasonable comparison.

I'm only referencing EVE because OP did, but I don't think the comparison is unreasonable: using a simpler architecture doesn't mean you don't use beefy machines and write your code in C instead of Stackless Python to get better performance in your physics simulations. It just means that instead of being overly clever in your network infrastructure from the get go, you pick something simple that works and iterate fro…

It probably starts at picking a game engine that doesn't absolutely suck dick at any multiplayer workload.

SC was from the start supposed to be a giant multiplayer world, yet they picked cryengine, which can barely handle simple shooter multiplayer gameplay. Half of the updates Chris has given on development are just over-explaining simple multiplayer game engine functionality that they've had to implement from the ground up, while you can download unity or unreal and replicate it in the next hour.

I've always found him to be full of bullshit. The kickstarter video had him spend like ten minutes waffling on about how the ships have thrusters on them and all the physics are calculated off those actual thrusters, as if 1) that's not just a useless implementation detail that changes nothing about the actual game, 2) as if that's impressive in 2012 instead of the exact thing the rest of the industry was doing, 3) as if that was hard work instead of just a normal thing a video game developer should be comfortable building, 4) AS IF IT MAKES THE GAME MORE FUN

I don't understand how he sold anyone off that video. The sales pitch wasn't even aspirational, it was clearly and obviously a grift, though maybe unintentionally, from the very beginning.

It's a great example of someone thinking "more simulation detail === more better". Every game developer should really attempt to take a class on the human psychology of games.

Re: StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

#112
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah. Lack of Product-Market fit. Classic. Thanks!

They had an incredible pmf - they could sell virtual spaceships in a game that didn't exist! People were hurling money at what they thought the product was going to be. It's just a question of how well they actually delivered on that promise.

That's not an example of product market fit, as the actual product: the game, never existed. The "product" in this case is a dream. "Star Citizen" means something very different to pretty much anyone who has thrown money at them.

Re: StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I gave up on it ages ago. The only fun thing was docking/undocking. It's funny, we've seen games released by the previous generations leading lights in game design and they're all disappointing so far. Relying on boring grinds, poor difficulty curves, etc.. Julian Gollop, David Braben, Chris Roberts, Peter Molyneux, etc. It's like they can't adopt the new ideas from the next generation to make their games fun.…

>Elite Dangerous is one of the worst. It's simply not fun. So pointlessly grindy for what is predominantly a single player game. I was so excited for the first 5-10 hours, and then so disappointed as it was obvious that every mechanic was just another massive progress bar that barely moved after hours of play. Speak for yourself, I had a lot of fun for hundreds of hours and revisited the game multiple times over the…

I'm sure it's fun for a small minority of players. The kind that like truck simulators. Takes all sorts. Other than that, it has incredibly shallow game elements. With long grinds of those shallow game elements to get new ships.

Lots of E:D's own player base acknowledge this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/qk6kqs/why_...

Re: StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"impressive if implemented" is a nice nutshell for star citizen, which on the whole isn't terribly impressive.

Its pretty impressive if you go in with an unbiased outlook IF you have the hardware to run it and you're a scifi nerd its mindblowing the first time around, even after 3000 hours i still have moments when i'm mindblown. (Recently had a tank that shot my friends ship from the sky during an ingame event)

> (Recently had a tank that shot my friends ship from the sky during an ingame event)

Except this isn't actually impressive if you've been playing games. Supreme Commander lets you block artillery shells with your planes if you are lucky, with zero scripted event, and that game released in 2007, is single threaded, is an RTS, and allows you to play 8 vs 8 games where EACH PLAYER can control 1000 units and play on a 50km by 50km map. Now that is impressive IMO.

Of course, if you attempted those things with a 2007 computer, you get about 2fps, but it works great nowadays. Also, that company was never handed half a billion on a silver platter before releasing anything.

More to your point, here are a bunch of other games that let you shoot a plane out of the sky with a tank, from before star citizen, that show just how mundane of a situation that is: Arma 2, Battlefield (all of them), Planetside 2, Damn Halo!, Various airplane and helicopter wargames from before the millennium, various tank games from before the millennium etc etc etc.

Hell, Atari's Battlezone from 1980s had helicopters as a target for your tank!

Re: StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back-end server technology, they want to make it a persistent MMO with thousands of concurrent players and effectively infinite objects in space. But this MMO is the most expensive video game of all time (although there's others that have had more invested in them over time, I'm thinking of World of Warcraft or GTA 5, possibly upcoming titles like GTA 6), therefore the server technology also looks like some of the fa…

The majority of the team is actually said to be working on the "solo" project which is Squadron 42. So they have an excuse for the sluggish development pace. Funny thing is, there hasn't been a single footage of SQ42 in 5 years, and you can't even buy the game anymore. There's a roadmap that says that the game is nearly done, but well, they seem to say this all the time.

>So they have an excuse for the sluggish development pace.

Except it shouldn't take almost 1000 people more than ten years to make a single player space game.

Re: StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

#116
post #44
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure not everyone who bought the game or a ship at this stage has enjoyed it, but a lot of us have. Even in its unfinished state there’s a lot of fun to be had. And, part of the game at this stage is watching it develop. The amount raised/sold so far is massive, but people keep buying because they’re getting something out of it.

I backed this game on Kickstarter back in 2012. I don’t care for all this focus on multiplayer, I was just in it for the singleplayer aspect. I wish they would just deliver that.

At this point what you actually want is to download the "Wing Commander" mod for the open re-implementation of the FreeSpace 2 engine. It's really good looking and a fun to play experience.

Re: StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

#117
post #94

I'm still waiting for the single-player Wing Commander-alike game that was supposed to be the whole reason to bother buying into this Star Citizen thing in the first place.

It's the reason I insta-backed in October of 2012 but I haven't heard a status update in years.

Did you watch the kickstarter video? It was so clear that they did not have a good plan to achieve their goals, and very obvious Chris was obsessed with extremely minor technical details that didn't matter.

I loved the Wing Commander games, but they had people in charge who could actually direct a project. Chris Roberts can't get out of his own head. The video was a clear indication that he was going to ruin it.

Re: StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

#118
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too wish to find such gullible investors to fund me for 10 years of alpha building.

you just need to sell the vision well enough. The so-called investors are not buying for financial gain, but for that vision. It's a pretty cool vision, but it's just unlikely to succeed in my eyes, and that's why i didn't buy in.

It's impossible to please the people who have bought in, because they bought into something impossible to make. They don't want a fully featured MMO space opera, or a new Wing Commander, but rather some vague dream they can't get away from. It's probably just nostalgia for most of them, chasing the high of childhood that they misattribute to Wing Commander, which was a fun series of games but in no way justifies the support Chris Roberts has had.

Re: StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those battles all take place under .25 or lower time dilation so that the servers can handle the load. Star Citizen plans on having a massive player count per shard under full normal time.

How do they plan on doing that though. There are like fundamental computer science problems to be solved, and it's not just like a problem you can throw a faster computer at.

"Trust us, we picked cryengine, a game engine with near zero multiplayer tech, for a game that is literally trying to break new ground in computer science. We definitely know what we are doing, and Chris Roberts is totally a great project manager that hasn't come close to killing nearly every project he has been in charge of, including several space games."

That's how.

Re: StarCitizen Server Meshing Architecture

#120
post #108
post #100

I'm honestly stunned how often I see the pattern repeat of telling the users they are wrong [1], particularly in this MMO space that I'd dearly love to see more games in. World of Warcraft ("WoW") is the elephant in the room. It killed the previous elephant (Everquest aka EQ) but has reigned supreme in a shrinking space for 18 years. It partially shrank because it used to have a social component that has mostly been…

Only the biggest MMOs, really just WoW and FF14, can deliver PvE content at a pace even close to satisfying players. It's expensive to develop and players can only play the same content PvE for a limited amount of time. It's just not possible for anyone but the largest dev teams. I would like to see an MMO that really focused on a wide range of gameplay systems rather than content. It's been attempted before, one exa…

I have a counterexample for you: Classic WoW.

For those unfamiliar, WoW came out in late 2004 and has had some ~8 expansions since. Each expansions adds new lands, new cosmetics, new dungeons, new raids and new systems. Additionally, these expansions changed existing systems. So much so that what is now refered to as "retail WoW" is considered too complex with too big of a barrier to entry by many. It's partially why the player base has shrunk as the game has increasingly catered to the top 1% to 5% ta the expense of the casual player base.

There has been a rich history of so-called private servers. These are privately run WoW servers that stick to older versions of the game, particularly the vanilla game and each of the first two expansions. These are illegal and never last long.

At Blizzard's annual conference, famously this came up when an audience member asked about it and the head of the game said "You think you do but you don't" [1]. This one guy probably did more to move this cause forward than anyone as it galvanized the community behind this idea.

Then 4-5 years ago Blizzard announced they were releasing "classic WoW". This is basically (but not entirely) the original game with some changes. Some were understandable, some less so. But it was basically the original game.

This has been massively popular and continues to be, so much so that Blizzard just released "hardcore classic WoW", servers where your character is over when you die. Lots of games have hardcore modes but it's interesting in WoW that it may takes ~6 days played to get to max level and a lot of people still want hardcore mode.

But my point is that this 18 year old game with about the same graphics continues to be massively in demand. You don't need to constantly churn out new content to a large scale like you suggest.

Also, SC has over a half a billion dollars and continues to somehow raise a lot through ship sales (which, to me, is bizarre). They very much could afford to continually pump out new content. But there's still only one system with the second years delayed.

Studios like PvP because it falls into user-generated content. The players entertain themselves and that costs almost nothing. But they fail to acknowledge that they're, at best, catering to 5-10% of the potential market.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wrw3c2NjeE

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