Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation • Hacker News Board

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#111

Post by lovvtide » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 9:05 PM UTC

adriand wrote: post #69

blueyes wrote: post #56

For me, the amazing thing about the Vagus nerve is that you can stimulate it with your breathing. And since the Vagus nerve affects the autonomic nervous system (involuntary, not consciously controlled) while breathing choices are conscious, this is one of the few ways that humans can directly impact important aspects of their psychology and physiology, like how calm they feel. Mindfulness + breath choices + vagus ne…

This might go beyond how you feel and into direct biological impacts. I don’t listen to the Huberman Lab podcast much these days but I did listen to the episode with David Linden, which I found quite interesting. [1] At one point, they are discussing the mind/body axis and the latest scientific developments in exploring how mental states can affect the body. There is a fascinating although very untested - but, testab…

> Linden was emphatic about how science requires a mechanism of action

I don't think this is correct. Science is based on empiricism. Of course we'd like to understand the mechanism of action, but it's not strictly required for scientific description of some aspect of reality. For example, Kepler's laws were derived from the observed paths of the planets — it was only later that these same laws could be explained with recourse to the theory of gravity.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#112

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

tempaway43355 wrote: post #23

tibbydudeza wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so awesome - thanks for sharing this - my daughter also has epilepsy, but it is fortunately controlled by medication. It seems that stimulating the vagus nerve resets something to default in the brainstem when a cascade event is about to occur - probably shuts down the errant signals from propagating to the entire brain ???. Do you know which lobe in her brain it happens ??? (my daughter has left temporal lob…

My child has Dravet syndrome so its quite major seizure activity and many different seizure types (tc, absence, focal, myoclonic). I think slightly more left lobe than right but its been a while since we had a full EEG. VNS is known to help with Dravet in enough cases that they were prepared to try the VNS. The VNS can help stop seizures but also there's a sortof long-term effect from just having it firing every few…

[deleted]

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#113

Post by redavni » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 9:46 PM UTC

lovvtide wrote: post #111

adriand wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might go beyond how you feel and into direct biological impacts. I don’t listen to the Huberman Lab podcast much these days but I did listen to the episode with David Linden, which I found quite interesting. [1] At one point, they are discussing the mind/body axis and the latest scientific developments in exploring how mental states can affect the body. There is a fascinating although very untested - but, testab…

> Linden was emphatic about how science requires a mechanism of action I don't think this is correct. Science is based on empiricism. Of course we'd like to understand the mechanism of action, but it's not strictly required for scientific description of some aspect of reality. For example, Kepler's laws were derived from the observed paths of the planets — it was only later that these same laws could be explained wit…

Yeah, he likely meant "Nature" requires a mechanism of action.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#114

Post by fruit2020 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 10:10 PM UTC

Does anyone here suffer from vasovagal syncope and has researched the topic more in depth? My last blackout was around one minute during a flight, house doctor says I shouldn’t be concerned.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#115

Post by adversaryIdiot » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 10:11 PM UTC

tempaway43355 wrote: post #2

One of my children has severe epilepsy and has a Vagus Nerve Stimulation device implanted - Sentiva 1000 https://www.livanova.com/epilepsy-vnstherapy/en-gb/hcp/produ... It has really helped although obviously it took surgery and then also nine months of slowly tweaking the settings. Before the VNS they could (for example) not go on a trampoline for more than a few minutes without having a seizure, but now they're fin…

i wonder why the battery cant be charged wirelessly

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#116

Post by lovvtide » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 10:19 PM UTC

redavni wrote: post #113

lovvtide wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linden was emphatic about how science requires a mechanism of action I don't think this is correct. Science is based on empiricism. Of course we'd like to understand the mechanism of action, but it's not strictly required for scientific description of some aspect of reality. For example, Kepler's laws were derived from the observed paths of the planets — it was only later that these same laws could be explained wit…

Yeah, he likely meant "Nature" requires a mechanism of action.

Even if that is what he meant, I still don't think it's correct.

To speak of a "mechanism of action" is necessarily to speak about a model of Nature that you, an observer, have created.

Natural phenomena exist empirically and logically prior to any such model, thus is is metaphysically redundant to say that Nature as such requires a mechanism of action.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#117

Post by tempaway43355 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 10:27 PM UTC

adversaryIdiot wrote: post #115

tempaway43355 wrote: post #2

One of my children has severe epilepsy and has a Vagus Nerve Stimulation device implanted - Sentiva 1000 https://www.livanova.com/epilepsy-vnstherapy/en-gb/hcp/produ... It has really helped although obviously it took surgery and then also nine months of slowly tweaking the settings. Before the VNS they could (for example) not go on a trampoline for more than a few minutes without having a seizure, but now they're fin…

i wonder why the battery cant be charged wirelessly

Interesting idea. Current battery in the device (I looked it up) is:

Chemistry: Lithium carbon monofluoride

Voltage: 3.3 V, open circuit

Rated capacity: 1 Amp-hour

Self-discharge rate: Its a tiny non-rechargeable battery presumably carefully picked for safety and very slow usage over several years.

I suppose the main barrier to wireless charging of implant batteries would be heat - wireless charging generates heat. And when something goes wrong with wireless charging it can generate a lot of heat. So I guess its risky? But then surgery to change a battery is also a significant risk.

Also I guess someone would have to go through the long process with the FDA of getting it all approved, whereas (at a guess) people designing implants try and use already-proven components and techniques where they can to make approval more likely.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#118

Post by sudodude » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 10:39 PM UTC

tempaway43355 wrote: post #117

adversaryIdiot wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i wonder why the battery cant be charged wirelessly

Interesting idea. Current battery in the device (I looked it up) is: Chemistry: Lithium carbon monofluoride Voltage: 3.3 V, open circuit Rated capacity: 1 Amp-hour Self-discharge rate: Its a tiny non-rechargeable battery presumably carefully picked for safety and very slow usage over several years. I suppose the main barrier to wireless charging of implant batteries would be heat - wireless charging generates heat. A…

Could also just be a battery lifetime issue? 8 years is a long time. If they made it rechargeable, they might still need to replace it every 8 years anyway just for safety.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#119

Post by baby » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 10:43 PM UTC

talldrinkofwhat wrote: post #66

baby wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post the technique here so lazy people like me can read about it!

I think they're talking about box breathing: https://www.healthline.com/health/box-breathing 4s:Full breath in 4s:Hold 4s:Full breath out 4s:Hold* *this one seems the least natural to me as you're just sitting there, at the bottom of an invisible pool, wasting away.

Interestingly Huberman talks about double breath in, then long breath out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBdhqBGqiMc

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#120

Post by broguinn » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 10:54 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #20

jossclimb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel down this rabbit hole after reading Breath by James Nestor. Got serious about practising 5.5 second inhales / exhales and started forcing myself to adjust to nose breathing (even during exercise) It did a total number on my anxiety levels and pulled me out of the constant cortisol fuelled fight or flight mode I found myself as I slowly crashed and burned into the ground I wish someone had taught me as a child,…

Post the technique here so lazy people like me can read about it!

I read the same book, and while it did help me in several respects (nasal breathing, mandibular and maxillar expansion via an orthodontic device, mouth taping), I only used its box breathing techniques under acute stress. It wasn't until I read a chapter in Peter Attia's Outlive about breathing techniques that I started changing my breathing in a way that, for me, feels like it's actively stimulating the vagus nerve. Here's how it works.

You want to breathe to expand your entire diaphragm, breathing into your upper and lower chest. One way to do this is to breathe through your nose slowly enough that you can't hear the sound of your own breathing.

To get a hang of it, lay on your back on a flat surface, place a hand on your stomach and a hand on your chest, and breathe in slowly. You should feel your stomach and chest rise evenly, neither too much in the stomach, nor too much in the chest.

Once you understand this feeling, you can practice it throughout your day. You feel your whole diaphragm expand, feeling the tension through your chest, stomach, and even expanding into your lower back. Anyways, that's how it's described in the book. I can say that since starting this breathing technique, I've felt a lot calmer. Best of luck, check the book out if you'd like a far more detailed and accurate explanation than mine.