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Windows feature that resets system clocks based on random data is wreaking havoc

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Re: Windows feature that resets system clocks based on random data is wreaking havoc

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because every developer has been told to never trust user input, and to sanitize the hell out of it.

There are public users and owner users. Specifically, you don't trust input from public users. You absolutely should trust input from owner users, or if you won't by default for some reason, you absolutely should give them the option to do so. Primarily, you should be giving them the choice as to what their system will do when it cannot reliably determine the actual time. The alternative is to pretend that you can so…

>'projected secure time.'

It's 5 o'clock somewhere!

Re: Windows feature that resets system clocks based on random data is wreaking havoc

#112
post #12

Windows Time bullshit was one of the most annoying things I dealt with during my years as an IT guy. Registering and unregistering w32time, trying different NTP servers. Trying to figure out why domain systems werent getting their time from the DC. It always felt so... stupid. Surely having the correct time on a device isnt that complicated. Turns out, its not, unless you're on Windows. Somewhat ironic that these day…

In 1996 I was supporting a small dialup operation, and one of our customers was having non-stop problems connecting via modem.

Their plant was 2 hours away, but I was driving past there to visit a friend, so I made arrangements to drop by and investigate.

For reasons unknown, most of their Windows desktops were configured to a year in the 21st century, probably 2096 instead of 1996 but it’s been a while. Wish I knew how they ended up that way, but I’m surprised dialup was the only thing they noticed that was broken.

Re: Windows feature that resets system clocks based on random data is wreaking havoc

#114
post #12

Windows Time bullshit was one of the most annoying things I dealt with during my years as an IT guy. Registering and unregistering w32time, trying different NTP servers. Trying to figure out why domain systems werent getting their time from the DC. It always felt so... stupid. Surely having the correct time on a device isnt that complicated. Turns out, its not, unless you're on Windows. Somewhat ironic that these day…

In 1996 I was supporting a small dialup operation, and one of our customers was having non-stop problems connecting via modem. Their plant was 2 hours away, but I was driving past there to visit a friend, so I made arrangements to drop by and investigate. For reasons unknown, most of their Windows desktops were configured to a year in the 21st century, probably 2096 instead of 1996 but it’s been a while. Wish I knew…

A lot of shareware back then stopped working after a certain # of calendar days, which it used windows to figure out. So I always had my date set far in the future.

Re: Windows feature that resets system clocks based on random data is wreaking havoc

#115
post #12

Windows Time bullshit was one of the most annoying things I dealt with during my years as an IT guy. Registering and unregistering w32time, trying different NTP servers. Trying to figure out why domain systems werent getting their time from the DC. It always felt so... stupid. Surely having the correct time on a device isnt that complicated. Turns out, its not, unless you're on Windows. Somewhat ironic that these day…

I decided a while ago that I was willing to sacrifice a few (and it's very few now - mostly just some anti-cheat using ones) games to just go Linux full time. I don't miss Windows one bit (well except Photoshop I guess :/) and I game a lot.

Photopea is probably your best photoshop alternative that runs in Linux.

Re: Windows feature that resets system clocks based on random data is wreaking havoc

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are public users and owner users. Specifically, you don't trust input from public users. You absolutely should trust input from owner users, or if you won't by default for some reason, you absolutely should give them the option to do so. Primarily, you should be giving them the choice as to what their system will do when it cannot reliably determine the actual time. The alternative is to pretend that you can so…

>'projected secure time.' It's 5 o'clock somewhere!

It’s 1970-01-01T00:00:00Z somewhere

Re: Windows feature that resets system clocks based on random data is wreaking havoc

#117
Does anyone discuss the hypothesis that it’s a statistical bug in the implementation and that there’s some small but non-negligible probability that the servers see a pattern of random timestamps that convinces them of a false time? Because the would be my naive guess as to the cause.

Re: Windows feature that resets system clocks based on random data is wreaking havoc

#119
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not just plausible but probably needs a CVE and then MS will have to act. I can feel an experiment coming on: Mint an OpenSSL based CA and use it to generate 200 certs for randomly generated CNs. The script could write out a zone file and web server vhost configs. Pop the CA cert in a Win PC/Server trust store. "Fix" the time on the web server. AutoIT could be used to poke a browser at each vhost or an iframe…

> advising sfc /scannow and then reinstalling the OS. I really hate that. If there is some problem, properly diagnose it, figure out how it happened, and figure out how to change things so it can never happen to you or anyone else again. Or you could just wipe all config and reinstall everything and hope it doesn't happen again!

My work Windows server VM boxen started off life largely as 2008 R2, one was 2008. They are all now mostly 2022 and converted to EFI with secure boot - some of them put up quite a fight. Not a large setup - three DCs - one in my home attic for DR, a File n Print n NPS n CA box, a Trellix (Nee McAfee) ePO and a few more bits n pieces.

sfc /scannow can fix issues but it is not a panacea and certainly not the first thing you should reach for. It sorts some aspects of .dll hell but that is an app thing and a complex one.

As you say, get the logs out and your stethoscope. Sadly most of us don't have access to source with Windows, so we rely on intuition, 30 years of experience and some really cunning search queries. Even though Google search is largely wank, a decent and carefully curated ublocklist can winnow out the worst rubbish.

Having said that, Outlook is totally damned when it comes to logs. Outlook trace logging is an Outlook programmers debugging tool only and of absolutely no use for a sysadmin. You literally fly blind with Outlook and are best off looking at Exchange logs instead. The Outlook devs are only interested in themselves and no one else. You do get CTRL - r click on Outlook icon to unlock the connectivity checker to give you absolutely no help apart from showing how bad things are. The autodiscovery checker is handy and I have fixed configuration issues with it.

Re: Windows feature that resets system clocks based on random data is wreaking havoc

#120

I wonder if you could use this 'feature' to exploit a system? Set up a bunch of servers all over the internet with innocuous web pages. Get all of them to include in their SSL headers the exact identical timestamp of July 5th 1998. Then get the user to connect to all those domains (eg. with a page with a bunch of iframes). The Secure Time service will see that lots of remote servers all agree with high confidence tha…

Hmm, so would an Outlook server hit this if a bunch of mail servers did this?
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