I'd Love to Move, but I Can't • Hacker News Board

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#111

Post by cletus » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 7:03 PM UTC

wonderzombie wrote: post #101

cletus wrote: post #30

Reading through this list of anecdotes I had mixed emotions. I spent a significant amount of time unemployed 10+ years ago in the post-dotcom recession in the UK and it was awful. This was partly due to the highly unregulated nature of UK IT recruitment but the problem was the lack of jobs. Still, a see some problems in this article. Like "I graduated with a philosophy major in 2008". Bzzzzt. Sorry, you made choices.…

"I was careful to say you "need a plan" for the real world when it comes to college." The problem is that we've been told all of our lives to "follow our dreams," because "being happy with what you're doing is more important than financial gain." It's a nice sentiment, but when you're 18, you've never lived in the real world and you simply cannot appreciate the trade-off you're making. This is to say nothing of stude…

> Before you can sign a lease, very often you need two months' rent and a security deposit.

And why exactly do you need a whole house/apartment? Sublet. Find a room on craigslist. These options require far fewer upfront costs and are far more flexible (you tend to be able to leave with notice from a few days to a few weeks).

> Maybe NYC is the exception to the rule

I would say that for American cities it is. You can live many decent places around NYC without a car for not much money at all. Sure you'll have a 1.5 hour train ride into the city but you can move... when you can afford it.

Car payments, maintenance and insurance are expensive. That alone in many places when added to your rent will allow you to move to a substantially better place.

> You still need to pay for food, utilities, and continue to pay rent while looking for a job.

These you need to do anyway.

> ... no guarantee whatsoever ...

What, precisely, other than death has a guarantee?

If you want to see if you can live with your parents into your 40s being a bum or live off welfare, OK. If you want to get on your own two feet, it's probably going to require you to take some risks and make some sacrifices.

That means getting rid of the car, cable, cell phone, etc, buying cheap clothes and feeding yourself inexpensively.

this is my overall problem with the complaints in the article: the subtext of entitlement. "No jobs in my field", "I've spent hundreds of dollars on drinking glasses alone", etc.

There's what you need and what you want and it's important to separate the two.

> In response, they're voicing perfectly reasonable objections.

But they're not reasonable. It's tantamount to "I can't move without giving up stuff".

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#112

Post by sequoia » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 7:20 PM UTC

Perhaps there is a market here: Inexpensive boarding houses for young people trying to get a start in high-cost-of-living job centers. If there were a place for young folks to live where you could get a room w/space for a bed and a desk, shared bathroom/showers, and 2 meals/day for, say $300-500/mo in Boston, I bet they would fill up. Allow people to focus on finding work, give them a leg up of sorts.

In my imaginary boarding house, you wouldn't get to "have it your way," you'd have to sacrifice some individual liberty out of deference to neighbors. To throw some random examples out there: your lease would not renew past 2 years (not meant to be permanent), maybe there's some work-trade to keep costs down, no music after e.g. 10, no guests after e.g. 11, perhaps locked front door from 0000-0530. The point of that sort of thing is a) to keep stuff under control so it doesn't become a party flop-house (e.g. "this is not your college dorm") b) keep people focused on their mission while there (to find a job and improve their situation) and c) to give people a strong incentive to move out.

I'm thinking of the boarding houses of ye olden days: it was cheap, frequently temporary, you had the amenities of a home (sleep, bathe, perhaps food), but it wasn't "your house" and you weren't entitled to treat it as such.

I think this'd be a great way for recent graduates to move to a big town like Boston or SF to look for work with much less stress & economic demands (in exchange for less "personal freedom"). My hat goes off to cletus's NY friend who "lives in a garage for $300/mo" but this isn't really scalable and most people can't find such a situation.

Anyway this is just a brainstorm about how I wish there were cheaper living options for new arrivals in BOS.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#113

Post by lxt » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 8:21 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #75

ctdonath wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mortgages are seductive. Get a nice place, up to or beyond social norms, but be tied to it for decades. Outright ownership, while humbling, gives far more flexibility.

A proper mortgage with a decent downpayment is effectively identical to ownership. The biggest advantages of a downpayment are protecting against just the sorts of problems we've seen. For one, saving up a downpayment shows that you are a fiscally responsible person with stable employment in the past. For another, it gives you instant equity and protects you against being upside down due to market fluctuations. You p…

Around here, some places have halved in value, which is more than a year or two's worth of payments.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#114

Post by eli_gottlieb » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 8:22 PM UTC

brandall10 wrote: post #54

cletus wrote: post #30

Reading through this list of anecdotes I had mixed emotions. I spent a significant amount of time unemployed 10+ years ago in the post-dotcom recession in the UK and it was awful. This was partly due to the highly unregulated nature of UK IT recruitment but the problem was the lack of jobs. Still, a see some problems in this article. Like "I graduated with a philosophy major in 2008". Bzzzzt. Sorry, you made choices.…

I was slightly offput by this comment "the financial costs of moving (which are high - I've definitely spent hundreds on new drinking glasses alone!)" Who spends hundreds on drinking glasses when they're financially strapped? That mindset percolates outward. I think a good part of this outlook comes from kids who came from upper middle class backgrounds, went to good schools, and expect to repeat the success of their…

>I was slightly offput by this comment "the financial costs of moving (which are high - I've definitely spent hundreds on new drinking glasses alone!)"

Ummm... I bought new drinking glasses when I was moving out, because otherwise I'd have nothing to drink from.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#115

Post by ryaf » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 8:25 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #24

ryaf wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I'm 26 and I had a decent paying software job in Florida. But I wanted to move up to New York so I convinced my job to let me work remotely. I made the move 2 months after they allowed me to work remotely. I sold a bunch of my possessions, made sure everything could fit into my car, gave away my furniture to my mom, and did the entire move for around $800 of my own money. (I had a place to stay when I got up he…

That's assuming you are young ,(presumably) have no kids and have a job that will let you will let you work remotely (the vast majority , like 95%+ will not).

The article was mainly referencing people in my position (young and no kids)...

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#116

Post by eli_gottlieb » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 8:25 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #111

wonderzombie wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I was careful to say you "need a plan" for the real world when it comes to college." The problem is that we've been told all of our lives to "follow our dreams," because "being happy with what you're doing is more important than financial gain." It's a nice sentiment, but when you're 18, you've never lived in the real world and you simply cannot appreciate the trade-off you're making. This is to say nothing of stude…

> Before you can sign a lease, very often you need two months' rent and a security deposit. And why exactly do you need a whole house/apartment? Sublet. Find a room on craigslist. These options require far fewer upfront costs and are far more flexible (you tend to be able to leave with notice from a few days to a few weeks). > Maybe NYC is the exception to the rule I would say that for American cities it is. You can…

But what gives them a "moral obligation" to move? If moving is economically rational, let them move. If it's not, I see no reason they should be under obligation to move.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#117

Post by ryaf » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 8:30 PM UTC

rbarooah wrote: post #60

ryaf wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I'm 26 and I had a decent paying software job in Florida. But I wanted to move up to New York so I convinced my job to let me work remotely. I made the move 2 months after they allowed me to work remotely. I sold a bunch of my possessions, made sure everything could fit into my car, gave away my furniture to my mom, and did the entire move for around $800 of my own money. (I had a place to stay when I got up he…

I assume you are aware that software is currently a booming industry, unlike most of the rest of the economy (other notable exceptions being finance and medicine).

Yes I am aware. I also noted that I am paid decently, maybe I should have made it clearer that I am paid decently for FL which is most certainly not the same in NY.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#118

Post by eli_gottlieb » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 8:36 PM UTC

kappaknight wrote: post #58

asolove wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to point blame in one specific direction. Yes, you are right they should take responsibility. But these are people who grew up doing the "responsible" thing and listening to the advice of teachers and parents. They made good grades whether or not they learned, did extracurricular activities whether or not they enjoyed them, and otherwise put aside any sort of personal decision-making for 21 years, in the id…

Doing what you like is a luxury. Most people need to just do what pays.

Are companies going to hire employees, then, who won't love their jobs with a burning passion?

Didn't think so.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#119

Post by eli_gottlieb » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 8:47 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #112

Perhaps there is a market here: Inexpensive boarding houses for young people trying to get a start in high-cost-of-living job centers. If there were a place for young folks to live where you could get a room w/space for a bed and a desk, shared bathroom/showers, and 2 meals/day for, say $300-500/mo in Boston, I bet they would fill up. Allow people to focus on finding work, give them a leg up of sorts. In my imaginary…

>Perhaps there is a market here: Inexpensive boarding houses for young people trying to get a start in high-cost-of-living job centers. If there were a place for young folks to live where you could get a room w/space for a bed and a desk, shared bathroom/showers, and 2 meals/day for, say $300-500/mo in Boston, I bet they would fill up. Allow people to focus on finding work, give them a leg up of sorts.

I have two responses here:

A) In Boston, it would never be allowed. Boston-Cambridge municipalities have LOVED the boom in rental values from both the growing student populations and their low unemployment rates. Why would they ruin a good thing by allowing new building, let along ugly, high-density boarding houses that resemble nothing more than student housing? And everyone official in Boston who isn't a student despises students.

B) I've thought of starting just this, but it WOULD be your college dorm (or at least, in the style of my old college dorms). Checks on room conditions every so often, eviction for damage or partying too much, month-to-month tenancy. You're missing an angle here: many people like the dorm/boarding-house lifestyle better than the apartment/house lifestyle. Many people enjoy not owning very much and having the majority of their life be "out there".

C) That fact leaves us with the opportunity to create a social environment for the long-term residents and to branch off into things like supplying network access or food-service.

In short, this is an amply viable business model (works for all the damn colleges!) that never gets used due to municipal and cultural biases against it.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#120

Post by eli_gottlieb » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 8:50 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #99

I love that we simultaneously have a heap of victim blaming that (a) they need to develop their professional networks more and (b) they just need to man up and move to South Dakota. Before you start commenting with an easy solution, you should stop and think: if everyone did this, what would happen? In the case of everyone networking better, it would simply recreate the current situation but biased towards those who…

>what you're interested in is furthering a persona of being a hard-ass concerned with individual responsibility and tough love (or, on the other side, a persona of someone who is exceptionally sympathetic and caring toward others).

Ah, but that's what people are actually interested in!