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Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#111

Post by gnicholas »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #76
CameronNemo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sad that we can't just drive 55 on highways. Not even trucks that are towing will drive 55 always.

You can. Just do it in the right lane, please.

Seems OK at first glance, but if you're in a 65 then the trucks (in the right lane) will want to go 65+. Going 55 in the right lane means they all need to pass you, which causes a domino effect onto the other lanes of traffic. If you're on a 4-lane highway (2 in each direction), going 55 means that trucks that pass you will have to go in the fast lane.

If there aren't a lot of trucks around, then going 55 in the right lane has less of an impact on other drivers. But if there are many trucks (which there usually are, IME), then going 10 MPH under the limit will cause a lot of headaches for all the other drivers around you.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#112

Post by kjksf »

dragontamer wrote: post #61
constantcrying wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of course he was ordered to build it that way Zero evidence for that.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-ba... > The directive to present the optimistic range estimates came from Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk, this person said. > “Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged,” the person said, adding: “When you buy a car off the lot seeing 350-mile, 400-mile range, it makes you feel good.” ------- This is evidence, is it not?

Depends.

If the plaintiffs have a sworn, signed statement from the person claiming that then it could be presented as evidence during the trial, subject to cross-examination.

If all they have is the article it's hearsay i.e. "evidence based not on a witness's personal knowledge but on another's statement not made under oath"

Also known as: bupkis.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#113

Post by sdfignaionio »

yurishimo wrote: post #36
CameronNemo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sad that we can't just drive 55 on highways. Not even trucks that are towing will drive 55 always.

Why do people need to drive slow? Sometimes you gotta get somewhere. If they are willing to pay the premium to driver faster and follow the law while doing so, what’s the harm?

I think you know why: efficiency and safety. Driving fast greatly increases fuel consumption and wear on tires. It makes crashes more likely and more serious.

Why do people need to drive fast? The gains are minimal even if you stay exclusively on a lightly-trafficked freeway. In more realistic scenarios, the gains are almost nothing. You'll just be the first one to the light or traffic jam.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#114

Post by bryanlarsen »

jcranmer wrote: post #103
bdamm wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and the one that is accurate is what you get when you put in a destination. The car can't tell you how far you can go if it doesn't know where you are going, because of all these factors (altitude gain, direction of wind, speed limits on the various roads involved, etc) which have a very significant effect on the range. The idea of a single value for "range" is fundamentally flawed. Is it Tesla's fault that pe…

> The car can't tell you how far you can go if it doesn't know where you are going But the car can use your recent driving experience to get a good estimate. After all, if you've spent the past 10 minutes driving at 70 mph into a strong headwind, there's a decent chance that your next hour will be spent doing that. (Although this does get amusing on I-68 where my range estimates are markedly different after cresting…

According to the article, that sounds like what they do. When the battery hits 50% they switch to estimating the range based on your driving on the top of the battery.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#115

Post by m463 »

MBCook wrote: post #6
constantcrying wrote: post #3

Seems like a pretty weak claim to be honest. I think it is pretty obvious that maximum range refers to maxium range under ideal conditions and that using more eletronics in the car reduces the range. Porsche isn't lying about their max speed either, just because you can't reach it with 300kg of load and bad weather.

Basically every other EV tries to give a realistic range based on the temperate and your driving habits. Teslas appear to always show the EPA range at full and it sounds like they stay very optimistic for quite a long time, giving drivers a very unrealistic picture. That’s lying to the customer. They’re not trying to be useful but to look good. And in every EV range comparison I’ve ever seen, teslas are the ones that…

tesla has two settings for range calculations, I forget what they were, but it was like realistic and ideal or similar.

EDIT: wait, I don't see it. I think there was a setting in older software?

I swear there was a range calculation setting that was like "average" and "ideal"

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#116

Post by brandonagr2 »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #35
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

This take is a bit weird to me. It’s like saying because other companies aren’t lying that Tesla should be excused from lying. It sounds like Tesla has been displaying this number in car regardless of the accuracy; and in my opinion leaned into lying. From the article: > The complaint cited testing that found three Tesla models fell short of their advertised ranges by an average of 26 percent. In addition to alleging…

You can buy a Tesla, run the EPA test cycle, and get the exact same numbers.

You will get less than "the range" if you drive 90mph on the highway until the battery is depleted. Where is Tesla lying anywhere in there? The consumer was just ignorant of what the EPA rated range means.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#117

Post by abduhl »

Delphiki wrote: post #91

Anecdata, but a few weeks ago I drove from LA to SF in my 2018 Model 3 (long range, single motor). It has a 75 kWh battery pack, my drive was 417 miles, and I drove 70 mph for probably 90-95% of the trip. I used a total of 95 kWh, which equates to ~329 miles on a full charge (100-0%). My efficiency was 226 Wh/mi. There are absolutely other times when I'll get substantially less range, but it's understandably when I'm…

My iPhone can send me alerts that I’m going to be late to work based on its tracking of my daily commute and you’re telling me that a machine that is constantly connected to a GPS network, sending data back to home base, and (almost?) capable of driving itself has “no way” of “magically knowing where you’re driving” unless you tell it?

If only they could use some of that data and processing power to back out someone’s standard commute, driving behavior, and local temperature.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#118

Post by kjksf »

mrguyorama wrote: post #89
bryanlarsen wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, a Tesla driven at 30km/h will exceed its EPA range by about 20%.

data from 3300 drivers from the very article we are discussing disagrees with your single anecdote.

It's not an anecdote, it's physics.

EPA created a repeatable test where the car runs at a certain speeds, most likely without wind resistance.

If you drive faster, the car will use more energy per mile therefore will have lower range than the EPA estimate.

If you drive slower, they car will use less energy per mile therefore will have higher range than the EPA estimate.

If there's head or side wind, the car will use more energy => lower range.

Someone drove Model 3 for 606 miles, at extremely low speeds: https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405906/tesla-model-3-hy...

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#119

Post by brandonagr2 »

sdfignaionio wrote: post #46
jackmott42 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla display that but also displays highly accurate estimates of any trip you plan. To me the real party at fault with EV range in the USA is the EPA, which combines city and highway range in a single number, which inflates the highway number. Every EV that is sold advertises this inflated EPA number. Nobody cares about city range, just publish highway range, or both, like we do with gas cars.

There are two important things you're missing: 1. Tesla's estimates are not "highly accurate". They are alleged to use a deliberately optimistic estimate when the battery is near full, then gradually switch to a more realistic estimate as the battery drains. In particular they are alleged to incorrectly account for the weather. This means the car will always display nearly the advertised number at full charge (and on…

One important thing you are missing, there are two different estimates being referred to. The "miles remaining" display on the battery charge gauge (which can be toggled to show percentage instead) and the trip planner / navigation estimate. The trip planner is very accurate, you can view a burn down charge of realtime estimate as it changes while you drive and it says what component contributed what % to deviate from the initial estimate. The "miles remaining" display is an imaginary number that is only meaningful if you are driving the same highway mix as the EPA test in the same climate conditions

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#120

Post by brandonagr2 »

dragontamer wrote: post #5
constantcrying wrote: post #3

Seems like a pretty weak claim to be honest. I think it is pretty obvious that maximum range refers to maxium range under ideal conditions and that using more eletronics in the car reduces the range. Porsche isn't lying about their max speed either, just because you can't reach it with 300kg of load and bad weather.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerate... Hypothetical Porsche didn't setup customer service teams to lie to customers on a mass-scale when the complaints came in though. We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla's software purposefully being inaccurate when above 50% charge, and then slowly becoming more accurate when reaching 50% or less charge. This is li…

What lie to customers? A team to stop ignorant customers from wasting everyone's time isn't a conspiracy, there was nothing wrong with the car or performance, what would a service visit achieve?
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