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At this company, we are family

pboyd.io

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Re: At this company, we are family

#111

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

hutzlibu wrote: post #78
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny What about the European system prevents that for the employee?

That we don't have hire and fire, meaning when you take a new job it comes with all kinds of regulations for the company - making them not wanting to change people so often. Otherwise we surely can do this in europe as well, just with a little bit more friction.

So it in theory adds more opportunities for the worker, assuming they are in high demand. Of course, if a European leaves their company they don't lose their health coverage.

Re: At this company, we are family

#112

Post by FredPret »

angarg12 wrote: post #88
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

I moved from the UK to the US recently and I'm not sure it's worth my while. Sure, I make more than 2x the salary, but the cost of living of a bit tech hub chips away most of it. Specially housing, which has increased dramatically since Covid. Even with my big fat tech salary, getting in the properly ladder seems to be years away. Pay less taxes? sure, but then you have to pay for everything and then some, and everyt…

I'm an immigrant too. It took me many years to break even on my emigration.

You only get to the part where it's all worth it once you've settled into the new country, gotten a few jobs/promotions/started a business, bought a house, made lots of friends, learnt the new culture (not such a huge shock for UK->US), etc.

This takes years and sometimes a whole generation!

Re: At this company, we are family

#113

Post by burnished »

mgaunard wrote: post #85
jraby3 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced Americans pay less in taxes. When you include state taxes, social security from the employee and employer, then it starts to look like much less of a difference. When you include health insurance and college education, Americans get much less value. I do agree with the first half of your comment. American labor laws make it easier to fire which allows employers to take more risk in hiring.

If you live in the UK, income tax is 45%, and you still cannot rely on either of public education or public healthcare, at least if you want something of good quality.

It is 20% up to 37k, 40% after that through 125k, and 45% after that. The US federal income tax is graduated much more finely but hits 12% between 10k and 42k and 22% from there to 89k, and 24% until 140k.

This neglects any state income or sales tax as well.

Re: At this company, we are family

#114

Post by esafak »

dsr_ wrote: post #75
playing_colours wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany we have probation period of 6 months that helps both sides to decide if they want to continue employment. Can you please explain the causation between easiness of firing / hiring and high salaries?

I can explain the theory. In scenario H (for hard to fire), we expect employers to spend more time evaluating new hires, because if they make a suboptimal choice, they will be stuck with that employee until they can justify to the authority that the employee is not suitable. This makes them averse to hiring quickly, and also averse to paying a premium unless they are extremely certain of the results. We then expect p…

I can't imagine employers spending more time vetting employees in the tech sector than they already do. The gauntlet candidates run through today is overkill. What more can they test?

Re: At this company, we are family

#115

Post by rad_gruchalski »

epups wrote: post #82
charliea0 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you hire someone for 100k per year and it turns out they only contribute 50k per year, then you lose a minimum of 25k over those six months. As a business you're more risk-averse in offering high salaries since it costs more when you make a mistake.

You can actually fire people with only two weeks notice during the first 6 months. I think the risk really is that nay inherent flaws in a highly paid employee are not detected early, and to fire them later is indeed very costly and complicated.

2 weeks notice in the first 3 months, 4 weeks in the second 3 months. This works both ways, both sides are free to terminate without stating the reason.

Re: At this company, we are family

#116

Post by FredPret »

johneth wrote: post #43
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

I think there's a middle ground between 'at-will employment capitalist hellscape' America and 'unable to be fired for months socialist hellscape' Europe.

It's probably helpful to point out neither is in any way close to being a hellscape, and the people in both places have done a wonderful job building up a civilization that suits them.

Re: At this company, we are family

#117

Post by StimDeck »

mgaunard wrote: post #85
jraby3 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced Americans pay less in taxes. When you include state taxes, social security from the employee and employer, then it starts to look like much less of a difference. When you include health insurance and college education, Americans get much less value. I do agree with the first half of your comment. American labor laws make it easier to fire which allows employers to take more risk in hiring.

If you live in the UK, income tax is 45%, and you still cannot rely on either of public education or public healthcare, at least if you want something of good quality.

[dead]

Re: At this company, we are family

#118

Post by ddq »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #107
Twirrim wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can talk about your salary with anyone you want, discuss it with your colleagues For all the other just absurd lack of rights employees have in the US, that at least is one that employees do have. Companies are legally _not allowed_ to stop you from discussing your salary with coworkers, or punish you in any way for you having done so.

Actually, if you're not unionized companies are 100% allowed to fire you for whatever reason they like, such as talking about your salary, as long as the underlying reason does not run afoul of anti-discrimination law (which discussing salary won't) and they pay you full severance due to it being a "termination without cause".

https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...

Re: At this company, we are family

#119

Post by rednerrus »

jraby3 wrote: post #40
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

I’m not convinced Americans pay less in taxes. When you include state taxes, social security from the employee and employer, then it starts to look like much less of a difference. When you include health insurance and college education, Americans get much less value. I do agree with the first half of your comment. American labor laws make it easier to fire which allows employers to take more risk in hiring.

If Europeans had to pay to defend their own international shipping routes their taxes would be exorbinant.

Re: At this company, we are family

#120

Post by cassepipe »

vore wrote: post #39
jylam wrote: post #16

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about…

It makes no sense to put the blame on individuals like this. I am no fan of the lack of workers' rights in the US, but the holier-than-thou European smugness is really not appreciated, given how little recourse people have in the American system.

I don't think the "holier-than-thou European smugness" is the reason why people lack workers' rights in the US. Most americans have never talked to a European person. But that certainly is the narrative some billionaire backed media is pushing. You only have the recourses you fought for. Having a culture where an organized workforce is not seen as rampant bolshevism would be a good start.
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