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A trick to eliminate 2π (sometimes)

marci.gunyho.com

111–120 of 179 posts

Re: A trick to eliminate 2π (sometimes)

#111
post #40

Interesting, but I wonder if you’d get all the same benefits by just measuring angles in units of turns instead of radians. That seems cleaner than the weird dbar differential stuff.

You can always define angles in turns. But the problem is that it conflicts with the definition cos(x) = Re{e^(ix)}. Trig is not so easily separated from the rest of mathematics.

There is no need for that definition.

It is possible to completely remove the e^x function from mathematics without losing anything.

It is possible to express everything using a pair of functions, the real function 2^x and the complex function 1^x.

Then the cosinus and the sinus are the real and imaginary parts of 1^x (where x is measured in cycles a.k.a. turns).

The only disadvantage of this approach is that symbolic differentiation and integration are more complicated, by multiplication with a constant.

In my opinion the simplifications that are introduced everywhere else are more important than this disadvantage.

The real and complex function e^x was preferable in the 19th century, when numeric computations were avoided as too difficult and simple problems were solved by symbolic computation done with pen and paper.

Now, when anything difficult is done with a computer, both the function e^x and associated units like the radian and the neper are obsolete.

When programming computations on a computer, using 2^x and 1^x results in simpler and more accurate computations.

Moreover, when doing real physical measurements it is possible to obtain highly accurate values when the units are cycle and octave, but not when they are radian and neper.

Re: A trick to eliminate 2π (sometimes)

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a math graduate student teaching my linear algebra class. He taught dot and cross products entirely algebraically, never drawing vectors as arrows, but as arrays of numbers. When I suggested after class that teaching the visual representation might help some students, he pushed back. Visual understanding, he explained, was a crutch best avoided, because visual intuition could break down in higher dimensions. I…

Seems like an odd choice when talking about the cross product, since the cross product is only a thing in 3D. You can define analogous things in other dimensions but it becomes clearer and clearer that it’s not meaningfully a ‘product’. So it doesn’t matter if your visual intuition for a cross product breaks down in higher dimensions - a cross product is only a thing in three.

This is very off topic, but the wedge product absolutely is "meaningfully a product", generalizes fine to arbitrary dimension, and has a perfectly reasonable visual/spatial/geometric interpretation.

(Indeed, we should entirely scrap the cross product in undergraduate level technical instruction and replace it with the wedge product; one happy effect will be replacing students' misleading spatial intuitions with better ones.)

Re: A trick to eliminate 2π (sometimes)

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not entirely impossible; mathematicians did it for thousands of years (just read Newton’s Principia). It does use very specific language to do so, and some of the language might not exist for some advanced mathematical concepts, but I think that this whole article could be written that way.

Yeah, let's talk about the difference in accessibility between the text on this site and Newton's Principia...

Maybe ctoth or some other user of screen reader might have a look at https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Mathematical_Principles_o... and tell us how it goes.

Re: A trick to eliminate 2π (sometimes)

#115
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always define angles in turns. But the problem is that it conflicts with the definition cos(x) = Re{e^(ix)}. Trig is not so easily separated from the rest of mathematics.

Yeah, you’re right. And radians are what make the trig identities involving derivatives work out nicely.

The simpler derivation formula was important when such symbolic computation was done by hand.

Now, except perhaps for school exercises, anything complicated is done with a computer and this advantage is much less important.

The increased accuracy and simpler formulas in other places when measuring angles in cycles a.k.a. turns vastly outweigh the advantage of radians for differentiation.

In real applications you almost always compute the derivative of sin(a*x), not of sin(x), so you have to carry a multiplicative constant through derivations anyway and the single advantage of the radian vanishes.

Re: A trick to eliminate 2π (sometimes)

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't discuss math while getting rid of the math symbols. That's not a reasonable proposal. Math on the web is broken, the the affected people should be up complaining about that. This site did the most accessible thing possible; the fact that every tool broke here, just like they do for every other method is not really the author's fault.

> You can't discuss math while getting rid of the math symbols. That's not a reasonable proposal. If we assert that some topic can’t be discussed with plain prose, then the only logical conclusion is that you can’t discuss the topic at all. > Math on the web is broken, the the affected people should be up complaining about that. There is really two different topic there. One is, how can screen readers deal appropriat…

[deleted]

Re: A trick to eliminate 2π (sometimes)

#118
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, angles don't really have units (the technical term is they are dimensionless). They are a length (the subtended arc of a circle) divided by a length (the radius of the circle). When you want to do something like get a sine wave of period T, you inevitably have to include a 2π somewhere. Speaking as someone who had to write down many 2π's in university (especially as I find angular quantities like angular fr…

This is not true. Angles very much have units and it's why you can express the same concept with different numbers. Pi equals 180 degrees equals 0.5 turns. 1 radian has different units than 1 steradian and if they didn't there wouldn't be a need for two different words to denote them. The quantity is a ratio of two lengths, and the length measure does "drop out". But it's not just any ratio, it's a very particular ra…

The reason it is confusing is because an angle measure is a kind of logarithm of a rotation, and logarithms (sort of) have a unit: the base.

The appropriate canonical representation of a rotation is a unit-magnitude complex number z = exp = cos θ + i sin θ, which has a planar orientation (whatever plane i is taken to represent; if you want to represent a 3D rotation you can replace i with an arbitrary unit bivector) but is unitless.

Such a rotation z can be thought of as the ratio of two vectors of the same magnitude: z = u / v satisfies zv = u, i.e. is the object by which you can multiply v on the left to obtain u. Whatever original units your vectors u and v had gets divided away.

This is similar to the way the "ten" in "scale by ten" is unitless, but if you take the logarithm you get "scale by 10 decibels" or "go up by 3 octaves and 3.9 semitones", which have the base of the logarithm as a kind of unit.

Re: A trick to eliminate 2π (sometimes)

#119
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how blind people normally engage with math. For me, engaging with math almost always means conjuring up a visual representation in my mind. Failing that, an equation. Since visualization is so fundamental to doing math, and since mathematical symbols and equations are a written language for which there is no spoken analog, I really can't imagine engaging with math without my eyes. Even reading equations a…

In terms of reading the notation out loud, if there is verbal ambiguity, remove it? For instance, for your example: "X plus B quantity squared" or "x + b squared" You can also do things like change the pitch of speech as symbols are nested, play specific tones to represent symbols, pan things across the stereo field to represent groupings, and otherwise make the symbolic equation into a multimodal experience. But of…

>I'm a bit confused to your original point about visualization

I guess I find that programming is somewhat more word-oriented than pure math. For instance, how do you think about complex exponentiation, or a rotation matrix? Do you bring to mind the sensation of spinning around? For myself, I bring to mind the image of the entire complex plane rotating and stretching along a spiral, but I'm led to believe that those who are blind from birth aren't really capable of doing that.

Harder examples might include fourier series, convolution, gradient descent, etc.

I think you could almost consider the visualization of these things like a crutch. I wonder if not being able to visualize them might remove preconceived notions about how they behave, and give you different insights.

Re: A trick to eliminate 2π (sometimes)

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how blind people normally engage with math. For me, engaging with math almost always means conjuring up a visual representation in my mind. Failing that, an equation. Since visualization is so fundamental to doing math, and since mathematical symbols and equations are a written language for which there is no spoken analog, I really can't imagine engaging with math without my eyes. Even reading equations a…

I had a math graduate student teaching my linear algebra class. He taught dot and cross products entirely algebraically, never drawing vectors as arrows, but as arrays of numbers. When I suggested after class that teaching the visual representation might help some students, he pushed back. Visual understanding, he explained, was a crutch best avoided, because visual intuition could break down in higher dimensions. I…

I can see where he's coming from. Geometric intuition is an useful tool but in this semester's linear 2 class I developed more because I stopped using it. It's too strong of a tool and blots out "dryer" intuition and methods, and also as you progress you find more and more places where it's not useful. What's the geometrical intuition for whether two circles intersect in Q^2? who knows?
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