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240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

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Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#111

Post by NBJack »

gumby wrote: post #105

This really makes me think about use cases. Personally I want my laptop to be as light and portable as possible; some of these bricks are likely heavier than my whole laptop! When I need crunch I do it on a desktop or in the cloud (or these days "... and in the cloud"). So I edit code locally but when I press c-X c, g++ runs on some other machine. I don't really understand why anyone would lug around an enormous and…

There is certainly a trend in processors as well as GPUs to push the hardware further by pumping more power into it. This (almost) always plays into the various workstation-grade laptops out there, which I suspect many won't unlock their full potential without a beefy power source.

Beyond gaming, the most interesting use cases I have seen and heard are CAD work/displays of highly complex models, creating heavy duty multimedia presentations, game development, and just about anyone in a country that either needs to do a lot of travel or does not have ready access to a high bandwidth connection. I don't know how prevalent those cases are, but they did surprise me a little.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#112

Post by NBJack »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #34
flerchin wrote: post #4

Waste heat seems like it would be a thing? Even at 95% efficiency (which is unrealistic), we're looking at a 12W heater.

Is 12W meaningful heat? I mean, I have laptops that run 10-15W and it doesn't seem like much. I guess it feels hotter because it's a much smaller surface area, but not that much (laptop heat output is mostly over the CPU/mainboard anyways)

In a climate controlled office or cold climate? Probably not. In an area that has hotter climates or high humidity? It doesn't sound like a fun time.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#113

Post by crote »

Kirby64 wrote: post #79
blacksmith_tb wrote: post #77

The Hdplex 250W [1] is pretty small, seems like it proves it's possible at least. 1: https://hdplex.com/hdplex-fanless-250w-gan-aio-atx-psu.html

ATX power supplies are a much easier task. Fixed voltages for everything. A USB-PD charger capable of 240W is essentially a variable power supply from 5 to 48V. Much more difficult in execution.

Rather the opposite, actually. ATX power supplies have to supply -12V, -5V, 3.3V, 5V and 12V at the same time. A USB-PD charger only has to supply a single voltage.

And pretty much all power supplies are switched-mode power supplies anyways, whose controller usually requires you to explicitly define the output voltage using feedback components. Changing that to a variable power supply like USB PD doesn't really require much engineering.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#114

Post by Kirby64 »

jaywalk wrote: post #64
kitsunesoba wrote: post #61

I wonder if we'll start seeing devices other than laptops that currently use barrel jacks for power shift to USB-C. 240W covers the vast majority of things even an enthusiast might have on their desk. It'd be nice if they did, if only because there's a single agreed upon way to deliver power with USB-PD, and USB-PD bricks hash out the details with the connected device to deliver appropriate power. It's a considerably…

USB-PD requires extra circuitry that barrel jacks don't. I doubt we'll see the end of barrel jacks.

Barrel jacks already have extra circuitry in quite a few of them. Dell is notorious for this; if you use a non-Dell charger it won't even let you charge your laptop.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#115

Post by crote »

rektide wrote: post #84
nfriedly wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When plugged in, it's in a very limited 5V state. Depending on what's on the other end, it's actually even better than that would imply most of the time. If both sides of the cable are in spec-compliant USB-C ports, then the power pins will be left at 0v for the initial connection, and only the CC pins will have a minuscule amount of power coming from the source (charger) - just enough to detect specific levels of…

> The reason some cheep chineese electronics with USB-C connectors can only charge with USB-A to USB-C cables, not with USB-C to USB-C cables is that they skipped the CC pins entirely. If anyone has a usb-c pass through adapter that can negotiate for 5v out, please please please share. Ideally for me it'd be a like 3 inch cable that that a male & female connector. Extra credit if it uses usb-pd to try to ask for 5v 5…

You can plug an A male to C male cable into an A female to C male cable, that gets you a (directional) C-C cable with guaranteed 5V output.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#116

Post by crote »

cperciva wrote: post #75
rektide wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usb-c connector is rated to 5 Amps (A). Usb-c went up to 20V already. 5A * 20V = 100W (where we are). We didn't want to change the connector. So we are stuck at 5A. But we can raise voltage & still have some margin. So voltage was raised to 48V. 5A * 48V = 240W. As for raising the voltage more, it's likely very technically feasible, but probably not, for safety reasons. There are various levels of what is conside…

Negotiating voltage after being connected avoids the problem of sparking while the connector is being plugged in, but I don't think it helps with avoiding sparking in the process of un plugging the connector? Unless one of the leads is shorter so that is disconnects first and the circuitry can detect that and turn off the power super fast?

You are absolutely correct, and the USB-C specification even has an entire appendix dedicated to the problem. The trick is to reduce the voltage difference until the plug is far enough that a spark is no longer an issue, which means placing an appropriately large capacitor at the Sink side.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#117

Post by crote »

orangepurple wrote: post #50
fnord77 wrote: post #8

why was 240W picked as the upper limit for PD? Why does there even need to be an upper limit?

Just watch: in the future we will have step up transformers instead of step down transformers so the charging cables can be thin again and charge fast

That's pretty much already the case when using power banks!

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#118

Post by speed_spread »

ycombinete wrote: post #92
kitsunesoba wrote: post #61

I wonder if we'll start seeing devices other than laptops that currently use barrel jacks for power shift to USB-C. 240W covers the vast majority of things even an enthusiast might have on their desk. It'd be nice if they did, if only because there's a single agreed upon way to deliver power with USB-PD, and USB-PD bricks hash out the details with the connected device to deliver appropriate power. It's a considerably…

I have a 180w gaming laptop, and would love even just having a GAN charger for it with a barrel Jack. But they’re hard to find at that wattage, never mind a usb-c one.

VoltMe make a 140W GAN charger, which I didn't try. Instead I replaced my Asus G14 (w/RTX3050) 180W brick with their 65W GAN USB-C PD charger and it provides ample power for regular non-gaming use. When momentarily going over 65W the battery is called to the rescue but it gets recharged quickly enough afterwards to maintain a comfortable margin. I very much appreciate the weight difference when travelling.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#119

Post by ycombinete »

speed_spread wrote: post #118
ycombinete wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a 180w gaming laptop, and would love even just having a GAN charger for it with a barrel Jack. But they’re hard to find at that wattage, never mind a usb-c one.

VoltMe make a 140W GAN charger, which I didn't try. Instead I replaced my Asus G14 (w/RTX3050) 180W brick with their 65W GAN USB-C PD charger and it provides ample power for regular non-gaming use. When momentarily going over 65W the battery is called to the rescue but it gets recharged quickly enough afterwards to maintain a comfortable margin. I very much appreciate the weight difference when travelling.

This is great to hear! I think I’ll do the same.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#120

Post by eternityforest »

gorbypark wrote: post #96
phil21 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already starting, I've noticed. I've gotten a few very random devices lately they would traditionally have been powered by a custom barrel jack, that are now USB-C instead. One was a cheap light up dog collar, and I've recently picked up a soldering iron with it. I expect the trend to continue as it's likely cheaper to toss in a single USB-C port and controller chip than it is to supply a power brick. I can see…

The big problem I’ve found is a lot of “cheap” things that have usb c don’t support PD. I have some hair clippers, a flashlight, some wireless ear buds and a semi expensive electric screw driver (from Lidl!) that have usb c but only charge with a usb a to c cables. It is infuriating.

Yeah, it's pretty infuriating, but it's still so much better than proprietary barrel jack crap
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