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Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

simonwillison.net

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Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#112
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ChatGPT did not lie; it cannot lie. It was given a sequence of words and tasked with producing a subsequent sequence of words that satisfy with high probability the constraints of the model. It did that admirably. It's not its fault, or in my opinion OpenAI's fault, that the output is being misunderstood and misused by people who can't be bothered understanding it and project their own ideas of how it should function…

> ChatGPT did not lie; it cannot lie. If it lies like a duck, it is a lying duck.

It doesn't lie like a duck. It unintentionally says falsehoods. Lying is intentional.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#113
It is very concerning how people are anthropomorphizing chat gpt. It will get a lot of people into trouble. The media is largely to blame for this. Never mind most gushing media stories about AI, even the few stories criticizing AI treat it as a human. Chat GPT is racist, they say, it is sexist or a liar.

Well it is neither of these things, because all of the above require consciousness and intent and it has none. It is not human, it is not any type of conscious being, do not treat it as such.

It sticks together sentences based on existing language scanned in from the internet and millions of other sources. What it says depends on what someone else said sometime ago on some random forum on the internet, or some book or some other source stored in an available database. It is also programmed to sound extremely sure of itself, unless you flat out say it is incorrect, in which case it will immediately admit fault and apologize. Thus, asking it if it is sure is pointless.

Let me tell you a less disastrous and quite a bit funnier story. A friend of mine used chat GPT for coding. My friend became really trustful of chat gpts coding prowess and asked it if it could just send him the code in file form, so he did not have to worry about copying and pasting which apparently screwed up the formatting somehow. Chat gpt helpfully told him that it could send the code to github, and my friend could download the files from there. My friend said, that is perfect.

So chatgpt gave him a github account name and said find the file it created for my friend was there. My friend looked but github said that account had long ago been closed. My friend tried variations of that account name with different capitalizations, etc., but found nothing.

He went back and complained to chat gpt. Chat gpt dutifully apologized and sent him another account name. He again spends time looking for the account and looking for variations, etc. Again the account has been closed.

This happened a couple of more times and in the end my friend gave up and complained to me. "Why is chat GPT doing this to me? Is it mocking me? Is it getting its kicks from sending me on random wild goose chases?".

I had to explain to him that no, chat gpt is not human, and it is not mocking him. What probably happened is someone on some forum asked someone else on that forum to provide him with code in files. The responder then offered to put the files on github and provided an account name. When my friend asked a similar question, chat gpt matched up the questions and provided a similar answer. When my friend said that a particular account did not work, chat gpt scoured the web for other people mentioning their github account names and provided some of those.

So whenever you use chat gpt, remember that is mostly a glorified search engine. It will spit out information it has found somewhere that it calculates as matching your question. Do not attribute intent, feelings or any type of conscience to it.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ChatGPT did not lie; it cannot lie. It was given a sequence of words and tasked with producing a subsequent sequence of words that satisfy with high probability the constraints of the model. It did that admirably. It's not its fault, or in my opinion OpenAI's fault, that the output is being misunderstood and misused by people who can't be bothered understanding it and project their own ideas of how it should function…

Whether a statement is true or false doesn’t depend on the mechanism generating the statement. We should hold these models (or more realistically, their creators) to the same standard as humans. What do we do with a human that generates plausible-sounding sentences without regard for their truth? Let’s hold the creators of these models accountable, and everything will be better.

>Let’s hold the creators of these models accountable, and everything will be better.

Shall we hold Adobe responsible for people photoshopping their ex's face into porn as well?

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#115
post #62
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It doesn't lie, it just generates lies and printed them to the screen!" I don't think there's a difference.

Lying needs intent. ChatGPT does not think therefore it doesn’t lie in that sense.

This is an interesting discussion. The ideas of philosophy meet the practical meaning of words here.

You can reasonably say a database doesn't lie. It's just a tool, everyone agrees it's a tool and if you get the wrong answer, most people would agree it's your fault for making the wrong query or using the wrong data.

But the difference between ChatGPT and a database is ChatGPT will support it's assertions. It will say things that support it's position - not just fake references but an entire line of argument.

Of course, all of this is simply duplicating/simulating for humans in discussions. You can call it is a "simulated lie" if you don't like the idea of it really lying. But I claim that in normal usage, people will take this as "real" lying and ultimately that functional meaning is what "higher" more philosophical will have to accept.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#116

Current LLM workflow is the epitome of "trust but verify". You need to hand-verify at some point in the process. This does end up losing you some of the time you gained by using an LLM in the first place. Fortunately you often do still come out ahead.

Honestly it’s the opposite. I go with don’t trust at all, extract everything that saves you time.

It’s just not a source of truth at all, it’s a source of raw material.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether a statement is true or false doesn’t depend on the mechanism generating the statement. We should hold these models (or more realistically, their creators) to the same standard as humans. What do we do with a human that generates plausible-sounding sentences without regard for their truth? Let’s hold the creators of these models accountable, and everything will be better.

> What do we do with a human that generates plausible-sounding sentences without regard for their truth? Elect them as leaders?

I always wondered about the weird typo when people write „GPT“ but substitute the „P“ and „T“ with an „O“ and „D“.

Hail ChatGPT!

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#118
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ChatGPT did not lie; it cannot lie. If it lies like a duck, it is a lying duck.

It doesn't lie like a duck. It unintentionally says falsehoods. Lying is intentional.

That's irrelevant to whether it lies like a duck or not.

The expression "if it X like a duck" means precisely that we should judge a thing to be a duck or not, based on it having the external appereance and outward activity of a duck, and ignoring any further subleties, intent, internal processes, qualia, and so on.

In other words, "it lies like a duck" means: if it produces things that look like lies, it is lying, and we don't care how it got to produce them.

So, Chat-GPT absolutely does "lie like a duck".

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#119
post #7

No, it did not “double-check”—that’s not something it can do! And stating that the cases “can be found on legal research databases” is a flat out lie. What’s harder is explaining why ChatGPT would lie in this way. What possible reason could LLM companies have for shipping a model that does this? It did this because it's copying how humans talk, not what humans do. Humans say "I double checked" when asked to verify so…

ChatGPT did not lie; it cannot lie. It was given a sequence of words and tasked with producing a subsequent sequence of words that satisfy with high probability the constraints of the model. It did that admirably. It's not its fault, or in my opinion OpenAI's fault, that the output is being misunderstood and misused by people who can't be bothered understanding it and project their own ideas of how it should function…

ChatGPT isn't a legal entity but OpenAI is, and Altman has already recommend to Congress that coming regulations should make AI companies liable for produced text and be 230 exempt.

I can see it already happening even without legislation, 230 shields liability from user-generated content but ChatGPT output isn't user generated. It's not even a recommendation algorithm steering you into other users' content telling why you should kill yourself - the company itself produced the content. If I was a judge or justice that would be cut and dry to me.

Companies with AI models need to treat the models as if they were an employee. If your employee starts giving confidently bad legal advice to customers, you need to nip that in the bud or you're going to have a lot of problems.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is everything. It doesn't understand intent, it doesn't have a motivation. This is no different than what fiction authors, songwriters, poets and painters do. The fact that people assume what it produces must always be real because it is sometimes real is not its fault. That lies with the people who uncritically accept what they are told.

> That lies with the people who uncritically accept what they are told. That's partly true. Just as much fault lies with the people who market it as "intelligence" to those who uncritically accept what they are told.

This is displayed directly under the input prompt:

ChatGPT may produce inaccurate information about people, places, or facts.

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