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What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

mrdbourke.com

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Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#111

Post by justinjlynn »

bee_rider wrote: post #67
zentropia wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worker ants are all sister and they don't reproduce, so no problem letting others do the hard work.

I think the “letting others do the hard work” makes it easy to interpret your comment as somehow very negative. The reproductive success of an ant hill is determined at the hill level, so the ants have no evolutionary incentive for selfishness at all.

Individual ants in a colony can be understood as cells of a multicellular organism operating at a higher level of independence. It's a fascinating adaptation and one wonders what "selfishness" would even mean in such a context. Do ants have memetic behavioural evolution or are their reactions to environmental stimuli purely genetically determined? It's actually quite a fascinating question with a number of implications and avenues for exploration.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#112

Post by tuatoru »

LesZedCB wrote: post #58
SeanAnderson wrote: post #43

The whole "opt out of expected group-think behavior" reminds me of a paper regarding the tunneling and movement behavior of ants: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/science/ants-worker-idlen... The gist of it is that 30% of studied ants do 70% of the work in digging tunnels. Other ants come in, see that it is too crowded, and don't try to force their way in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants…

some ants love to work, it brings them meaning. some ants love to mountain bike, and who can blame them?

Other ants have to look after their disabled a[u]nts and antkle-biters. Others still brighten the nest with their antics and antworks.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#113

Post by tuatoru »

SeanAnderson wrote: post #81
jasmer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's some heavy handed humanization of ants attitudes there. "in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants" "all ants to be comfortable allowing some of their ant peers to work less" Or maybe on some instinctive level they realize they just literally cannot work in the crowd and wait until they can and that's that.

It was intentional! :) After all, the title of the post we're commenting on is contrasting human behavior to bees. No, I don't believe ants are actually acting with intelligent, social behavior in an attempt to win over their fellow ants. They're just little statistical robots searching for optimality. That said, there have been times that I've been frustrated when I feel I am working harder than my peers and, in tho…

ant-hropomorphism?

Yes, there needs to be a statistical distribution of effort for intrinsic reasons --in this case of physics. Even if it wasn't needed, it would exist. The workers can console themselves with the thought that when times get hard, the idlers will be nice, tender, succulent food.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#114

Post by RHSman2 »

Nevermark wrote: post #101
SeanAnderson wrote: post #43

The whole "opt out of expected group-think behavior" reminds me of a paper regarding the tunneling and movement behavior of ants: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/science/ants-worker-idlen... The gist of it is that 30% of studied ants do 70% of the work in digging tunnels. Other ants come in, see that it is too crowded, and don't try to force their way in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants…

> The whole "opt out of expected group-think behavior" [...] I would have opted out. But I never figured out how to be "in"! I suspect a lot of people forging their own paths didn't really choose too, although they might assume they did. When you see things differently, you don't just have different visions of where to go, but an aversion to those well worn paths that often seemed inexplicably depressingly difficult.

I’m gonna write my book called ‘living with a difficult person (me)’ I don’t mean to be, it just is that way.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#115

Post by RHSman2 »

mr_toad wrote: post #92
SeanAnderson wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was intentional! :) After all, the title of the post we're commenting on is contrasting human behavior to bees. No, I don't believe ants are actually acting with intelligent, social behavior in an attempt to win over their fellow ants. They're just little statistical robots searching for optimality. That said, there have been times that I've been frustrated when I feel I am working harder than my peers and, in tho…

Social behaviour doesn’t imply intelligence, or at least conscious intelligence. Most ants will never reproduce. Their life has no meaning beyond the wellbeing of the colony. It make sense that what is statistically optimal for the ant is social behaviour.

Meaning? What meaning does our lives have beyond our colony (which is at risk)?

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#116

Post by RHSman2 »

pgreenwood wrote: post #95
jasmer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's some heavy handed humanization of ants attitudes there. "in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants" "all ants to be comfortable allowing some of their ant peers to work less" Or maybe on some instinctive level they realize they just literally cannot work in the crowd and wait until they can and that's that.

Yes we should be careful not to anthropomorphise ants. They really don't like it, and it causes them a lot of anxiety.

Antxiety?

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#117

Post by RHSman2 »

ChatGTP wrote: post #49
SeanAnderson wrote: post #43

The whole "opt out of expected group-think behavior" reminds me of a paper regarding the tunneling and movement behavior of ants: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/science/ants-worker-idlen... The gist of it is that 30% of studied ants do 70% of the work in digging tunnels. Other ants come in, see that it is too crowded, and don't try to force their way in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants…

This is so cool. We have a lot of ants in our place at the moment and they're fascinating to watch. They do seem to solve problems and even show empathy towards each other. Sadly one was badly injured the other day and two other ants tried to come to the rescue, it was beautiful and sad to watch.

I have a cherry tree. Grown from a sapling. A few years ago I noticed the leaves turning in. Aphids. I then discovered that Ants farm those aphids. They place a guard ant to stop predators (lady bugs) and let this black little fellas grow and grow. Then the other ants feed off their sugary goodness. Incredible. Where does that direction come from? Collective consciousness with inherent intelligence?

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#118

Post by jeff_d_miller »

yellowapple wrote: post #91
Abimelex wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting, that even in a community like HN, almost nobody seems to ask for the scientific reference here. Might have something to do with confirmation bias? Or is there such a thing like sounds-interesting-AF-bias?

Or perhaps the important thing is the story being told rather than the exact scientific accuracy of the setting. Tortoises and hares don't literally talk or enter foot races with one another, either, yet there's still plenty of value to be had from the fable featuring them.

Right, just like Trump's strategy. Immigrants are bad for 'merica. Don't mind the details or ask for proof. It's the story that counts, and in the story they are all rapists taking the jobs of hard-working 'mericans.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#119

Post by jeff_d_miller »

owenmarshall wrote: post #42
Zetice wrote: post #38

Okay heh, bees may not actually do this the way described in the essay, but that doesn't invalidate the point, does it? When there's safety in failure, take risks, and favor risks that have asymptotic upside. Seems like good advice to me!

> When there's safety in failure, take risks, and favor risks that have asymptotic upside. Seems to me that the real trick is knowing when there actually is safety in failure. Quit your steady job, strike out on your own, oops the economy popped and every steady job is now on a hiring freeze. Good luck!

The asymptotic upside is for the population as a whole, not necessarily for the individual.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#120

Post by boxed »

neilk wrote: post #8

I couldn't find any other reference to this rogue bee thing (except other inspirational essays). Wikipedia's entry on the waggle dance seems to suggest that bees often don't make use of the information in the dance. It's not some rare maverick bees per se. It's more that the information may not be important given the season or climate or presence of competition for the food. So it can be adaptive to ignore it. https:…

> It's more that the information may not be important given the season or climate or presence of competition for the food. So it can be adaptive to ignore it.

That was the literal point of the thing from the beginning. You haven't refuted the idea, you have just explained it in other words.

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