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Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

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Re: Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

#111
post #26

This is exactly the kind of concept I personally expect from Apple if the AR rumors materialize at the upcoming WWDC... maybe with a less clunky design. Now that I think about it, the existing Mission Control/Full screen App interface could make total sense for this UI. You could quite easily translate theses concepts to an AR deck bridging the gap between all existing Apps and this new interface.

Exactly - Apple has all the pieces to absolutely nail the AR workspace experience.

Reality OS Headset built on top of iOS (and MacOS) could easily allow bluetooth peripherals (keyboard/mouse) to pair with to their headset, and you've got multi-monitor workspace ready to go in a physical space that normally wouldn't accomodate it.

Need more CPU/GPU than the Headset provides? Just use Sidecar to push your Mac desktop into AR and work on it as a 2D pane from there.

I've used Virtual Desktop on the HP G2 Reverb, and while the quality was excellent, it's a bit clunky having to connect HDMI/Displayport loopback connectors to bring up multiple displays, and I'd much prefer to do my work in MacOS.

A lot of the speculation around the new product seems to be around AR augmenting people moving around in public space, but the thing that gets me excited is what this might mean for the traditional desktop environment.

Re: Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

#112

this is a cool concept, but I have tried some VR devices, none of them are clear enough to be a monitor replacement. I also don't know the long term impact of these devices to my eye sight.

Most VR headsets on the market are not clear enough to display text. For example, Meta Quest Pro and Quest 2 both have pixel densities around 21 pixels per degree. While a 27" monitor running at 2560x1440 at an arm's length (40 degrees horizontal FOV) will have a pixel density of around 64 pixels per degree. 64 PPD is very legible and usable for office applications, chatting, and similar things. One can see individual pixels in very aliased and high-contrast images, but not otherwise. In contrast, 21 PPD is not great - most text will be either very blurry or aliased on an equivalent virtual display. The math is simple: 21 pixels per degree x 40 degrees (which is 1/3rd of the human eye's horizontal FOV including peripheral vision), equals a display resolution of about 840x473 at 16:9, or close to 420p. Clearly, this is not comfortable to do office work with.

SpaceTop has a relatively low FOV but much higher pixel density of about 46 pixels per degree. It's about twice as good as what Meta Quest Pro and Quest 2 can do. It also seems to have individual floating apps rather than entire screens, but if we would assume that one would like to have a typical experience roughly equivalent to a 27" 16:9 screen at an arm's length, that virtual screen would be at about 1840x1035. I think this is right at the edge of what I would consider comfortable. Most graphics, including text, would probably be slightly blurry, and anti-aliasing blur or aliasing artefacts would be clearly seen. But I would not get too frustrated by it.

That's a trend with AR glasses when compared to VR headsets - they have narrower FOV and higher pixel densities. So they are overall better for non-immersive office-like applications. Still, the holy grail of productivity AR headsets is something like 60 PPD and at least 90 degrees horizontal FOV x 60 degrees vertical FOV. At that point, I would say the differences between our actual vision and what can be shown on the glasses in terms of resolution would be not significant, assuming the eye balls always point within 30 degrees of the center of the AR display. But this means a resolution of around 5400x3600 per eye. Or approaching 12K in total for both eyes combined.

SpaceTop is probably much more usable for office work than many of the VR headsets on the market. And it seems like they're aiming for a similar experience to having one or two 1080p 27" screens about a meter away from one's face. I think it's right on the border between fun tech and practical tech. Slightly higher PPD and FOV would push it more into the territory of practical tech for me, someone who writes and codes while travelling. Now it sounds good but not revolutionary.

Re: Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

#113

For a reality check on those large virtual desktop illustrations, while I do like the (same hardware?) NReal Light's 1080p, its 52 deg FOV means looking at such a desktop through a smaller, not-curved, head-pointed portal. Picture holding up your laptop, so it appears 5 fists across diagonally, and then waving it around, likely synchronized with your neck. Which looks something vaguely like these:[1][2]. [1] Phone ph…

You aren't gonna answer the reply to that tweet? :(

I like the idea of wearing glasses like that and moving a Youtube video into the corner of my vision, like a recipe video while I'm cooking. Or something more stimulating than just a podcast when I'm running that I can tune in and out of.

Re: Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

#114
post #101
post #70

Would allow laptops with ergonomic keyboards! That would be an interesting product.

there's... there's nothing preventing this today... What are you on about?

The flat screen seems to make it impossible to make the curved base of an ergonomic keyboard. I have never seen a laptop with a curved keyboard and thus always carry my ergonomic keyboard with me when I bring my laptop to conferences etc.

Re: Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

#115
post #48

I would gladly buy a PC built into decent keyboard. Considering performance of ultra portable laptops and their size, it should be a perfect fit. I would even go for an option without battery, powered by USB-C by connecting this computer to external monitor. Monitor could act as a hub, thus reducing the need for ports, although there should be ample space for all the ports on the back of the keyboard.

The framework laptop has the potential to be a good platform for this.

Re: Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

#116

I've been doing this since December with a pair of Nreal Air glasses and alternately a MacBook and an SBC. It's okay-ish, but not great. Text rendering is sub-par requiring jacked-up font sizes, the viewport is fairly small, and if you're using the Nreal desktop for simulated multi-monitor configuration, the display jiggles a bit as the accelerometers catch up with your movements. It's sure as hell not worth the $200…

Can you get away with smaller font size if you have the cover on or it doesn't matter?

I'd say that the cover is more-or-less mandatory for productivity because you lose dimmer colors to the background without it, even with the OLED brightness jacked up to max.

Then again, they're doing obvious PWM to achieve the lower-than-max brightness levels which creates flicker reminiscent of looking at an old CRT monitor running at 60Hz, which for me is a disincentive to run at anything less than max brightness.

Re: Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

#117
post #111
post #26

This is exactly the kind of concept I personally expect from Apple if the AR rumors materialize at the upcoming WWDC... maybe with a less clunky design. Now that I think about it, the existing Mission Control/Full screen App interface could make total sense for this UI. You could quite easily translate theses concepts to an AR deck bridging the gap between all existing Apps and this new interface.

Exactly - Apple has all the pieces to absolutely nail the AR workspace experience. Reality OS Headset built on top of iOS (and MacOS) could easily allow bluetooth peripherals (keyboard/mouse) to pair with to their headset, and you've got multi-monitor workspace ready to go in a physical space that normally wouldn't accomodate it. Need more CPU/GPU than the Headset provides? Just use Sidecar to push your Mac desktop i…

And while we are at connecting the dots... One main problem with VR/AR is how the hell are you supposed to have online meeting while under a ski mask?

The headset could include discreet lidar/else captor to track eyes movements. Meanwhile the base could track head movements and mouth expression from the outside. Bam you have every data points to animate a memoji. I guess through an API more advanced avatars could be designed by a game developer. But memoji would be a nice proof of concept.

If all this materialize The sweet spot would be a Thunderbolt plug and a M1/M2 requirements. The 3000$ rumored price tag would refer to a complete setup including a mac mini but the headset alone could sell at a more affordable price range.

(Disclaimer: this is a personal guess I have no access to insiders)

Re: Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably isn't but there are simple exercises to help ameliorate it†. (The problem is that I am frequently too lazy or too busy to do them.) †unless, in your case, the arrow of causality between vision and computer screen distance is in the opposite direction.

what exercises should we be doing?

The obvious one is taking regular breaks from the screen. Focus on things at least 10-30 meters away, so your eyes can relax.

Also, with a good lens setup or with direct projection, VR/AR headsets could theoretically set the focus distance at any distance or even dynamically change it. This would also solve the vergence-accommodation conflict with current headsets.

Re: Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

#119

I don’t really understand why my iPhone can’t just be a desktop. It should just hook up to a dock and turn into a desktop pc. It’s got the power to do everything I do I just need a monitor and keyboard hookup

Works on my Androids. And then there is termux which let me feel like it is a real computer.

Re: Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

#120
post #107

For a reality check on those large virtual desktop illustrations, while I do like the (same hardware?) NReal Light's 1080p, its 52 deg FOV means looking at such a desktop through a smaller, not-curved, head-pointed portal. Picture holding up your laptop, so it appears 5 fists across diagonally, and then waving it around, likely synchronized with your neck. Which looks something vaguely like these:[1][2]. [1] Phone ph…

Can you use the nreal without activation?

I don't think you can, but activation is pretty straightforward through either a phone or a pc with usb c with display port alt mode.
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