Live data from Hacker News

Who wants to be tracked?

quantable.com

111–120 of 273 posts

Re: Who wants to be tracked?

#111

Better question here is, why is this not handled through the browser instead of relying on individual web apps to do it. Block third party cookies by default, delete other cookies on the last tab or window closed and prompt user to save cookies on a form submit ("do not delete cookies for this domain when leaving" type of prompt, for pages with logins, settings, etc). Also remove features that make easy fingerprintin…

> Better question here is, why is this not handled through the browser instead of relying on individual web apps to do it. We had Do-Not-Track header once. Id did not play out very well.

Sometimes I wish GDPR included a clause stating that presence of the Do-Not-Track header equals to the user not giving consent.

Re: Who wants to be tracked?

#112
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is similar to law enforcement saying: "You mean we cannot track everything you say and do. How in the world are we supposed to do our jobs safely and efficiently?" Answer is, you basically can't. Not safely and not (as) efficiently. Because the world will turn dystopian and will destroy the very thing we are trying to create/maintain. (Happiness, etc) It's nice to be able to A/B test your blog or product. It's c…

> it also hurts How is simple analytics or A/B testing that's NOT internet-wide tracking (that is, only for the website you're on) or sold (which would be outright illegal without explicit consent) hurting you? Genuine question, because I don't see it. Internet-wide tracking across many sites: sure. But that's a very different thing – it's the difference between "I'm home Darling, I saw Sander at the mall today" vs.…

I get the feeling. But to make things very simple, it's again like law enforcement tracking everything you say and do. Let's say it's a single agency, with a single employee doing the tracking to keep it easy.

How is that hurting you? How is your every movement being tracked by a single agency such an issue? They said they would keep it private, pinky promise.

Re: Who wants to be tracked?

#114
post #102
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like like being issued a state mandated always online tracker and then police would say verbally that they promise not to abuse that data. And before people would nitpick my comment, metadata is surveillance. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/metadata_equa...

I bet HN keeps server logs; would you say you're being surveilled by viewing this page and posting that comment? If not, why not? What's the difference between that metadata and any other?

I'm not claiming the relation is causal. I don't know what happens between happy world -> happy world with constant surveillance -> dystopian hellscape. The same is true for HN logs. I'd say, yes those logs are a form of surveillance. If that matters is where the debate is. It's hard to say, because these things are slippery and take (a long) time.

Re: Who wants to be tracked?

#115

Does someone know why it is legal that in some countries websites are allowed to offer layers that offer a paid version and a tracking enabled version (very popular among newspapers)? As far as I understand the GDPR, there should be no downside to rejecting the tracking technologies. And Websites relying on advertising, could do so with unpersonalized ads (granted with very different metrics). Nevertheless, to me it…

You mustn't reject service based on refusal of non-legitimate-reason data processing consent. Allowing paying to not have ads is orthogonal to the service being provided - in both cases the user gets the news, it's just flanked by ads in one case.

Re: Who wants to be tracked?

#116
post #15

I have switched one of my sites to cookieless analytics and it is bad for everybody. I can't even say how many users this site has now. It could be the same user coming back over and over. Or many users. How would I know. Yes, I could track a ton of stats about every pageview like user agent, screen resolution etc and then try to stitch it back together. Trying to figure out how many different users there are. But th…

Not really cookie-less and it can be considered a regression compared to cookies because of JS, but something that can work is doing stats + anonymization client-side.

You can store information client-side, without sending them over network, but randomly send digests back to your server.

For instance you can store a counter of the times the user went to visit the website, and randomly with a 1% probability send that counter to your server. (It's better to make it random, because if you send every +=1 you would end up being able to track users).

At my work, I do a lot of statistics of user usage, but I always work to do my best not to leak PII. I'm not a security or privacy researcher, so my work is probably not great but still, the way I do it I believe is largely private:

- No unique ID sent, but a daily digest (some people send every single event to their statistics server, and thus need a unique ID to know how many time one person did one action. With a digest that already counts the actions there is no need)

- bucketized persistent data: for example the available storage size of the device the app is running on. Sending precise value would make it easier to track digests from one day to the other and track users

- For booleans, add some white noise (because 20 booleans is enough to identify someone)

- For open-ended information (for instance the list of countries contacted by your SMS app), booleanize it (one boolean per country, cf previous line), and maybe keep a counter to know how many you didn't take into account to know whether you're still missing a lot.

Yes overall doing it with no PII requires much more work, but then Big Tech (and smaller techs like Clearview) clearly showed that any PII can and WILL be used against their users. The best way to never leak user's data remains to never have them in the first place.

Re: Who wants to be tracked?

#117
post #15

I have switched one of my sites to cookieless analytics and it is bad for everybody. I can't even say how many users this site has now. It could be the same user coming back over and over. Or many users. How would I know. Yes, I could track a ton of stats about every pageview like user agent, screen resolution etc and then try to stitch it back together. Trying to figure out how many different users there are. But th…

UIs were developed in the pre-web world without tracking or analytics. If you clearly explain that the cookie is for improving the UI and the user doesn't want it, it's because they don't care about it as much as you do.

Re: Who wants to be tracked?

#118
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it also hurts How is simple analytics or A/B testing that's NOT internet-wide tracking (that is, only for the website you're on) or sold (which would be outright illegal without explicit consent) hurting you? Genuine question, because I don't see it. Internet-wide tracking across many sites: sure. But that's a very different thing – it's the difference between "I'm home Darling, I saw Sander at the mall today" vs.…

I get the feeling. But to make things very simple, it's again like law enforcement tracking everything you say and do. Let's say it's a single agency, with a single employee doing the tracking to keep it easy. How is that hurting you? How is your every movement being tracked by a single agency such an issue? They said they would keep it private, pinky promise.

Law enforcement tracking everyone can have serious and unintended consequences in away that a SaaS tracking visits are unlikely to have.

An extreme case is on the other side, is to compare simple site limited tracking to a coffee shop being able to see who enters the door. Why should they track how I look and the way I'm dressed? Does it make service harder if you have to work blindfolded? Though luck, my privacy is more important than your wish to provide your customers with good service.

Re: Who wants to be tracked?

#119

Better question here is, why is this not handled through the browser instead of relying on individual web apps to do it. Block third party cookies by default, delete other cookies on the last tab or window closed and prompt user to save cookies on a form submit ("do not delete cookies for this domain when leaving" type of prompt, for pages with logins, settings, etc). Also remove features that make easy fingerprintin…

On mobile safari, private tabs isolate cookies from each other. Also, once you are in private mode, all links open in new private tabs. Close the tab, and the cookies are gone.

I never turn private mode off. I wish firefox and chrome also worked this way.

Re: Who wants to be tracked?

#120

Better question here is, why is this not handled through the browser instead of relying on individual web apps to do it. Block third party cookies by default, delete other cookies on the last tab or window closed and prompt user to save cookies on a form submit ("do not delete cookies for this domain when leaving" type of prompt, for pages with logins, settings, etc). Also remove features that make easy fingerprintin…

GDPR is not about cookies, it's about tracking.

Browsers can (and do in the case of Firefox and other privacy respecting browsers) try to make it harder to track you, but it's not something they can just unilaterally turn on or off.

Consent dialogs are about what sites do with the information they get about you, not just about what information they get.

Post reply on HN