Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#111

Post by PragmaticPulp » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:06 PM UTC

jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #54

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

It only took a couple of weeks going without a phone for me to see a marked improvement on my outlook on life and the world, so to me the correlations between phones and mental health are pretty clear.

I’m curious: How much were you using your phone each day before you gave it up for a week? And for what?

I set a 30 minute screen time limit for social media apps on my phone because I thought I was using social media too much. Then to my surprise I almost never hit that limit. I can consume all of my social media within well under 30 minutes each day and keep up with friends, family, and even HN just fine. I’m honestly curious about what people are consuming so much of that it deteriorates their mental health.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#112

Post by greenhearth » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:07 PM UTC

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

What about the physiological effects, such as dopamine addiction and the consequential withdrawals, which are probably the main cause of the depression?

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#113

Post by alexb_ » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:07 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #100

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> Smartphones give children the ability to bully eachother at a scale unlike any other. No, social media does. I think it's important to be specific about that because a smartphone is just a tool, same as a laptop or a desktop computer is (when I was a kid there was plenty of bullying that went on via AIM!) Having access to e.g. Wikipedia is of enormous benefit to young people. Having the means to easily call your pa…

Smartphones are what enable social media to ruin the lives of children.

You can access Wikipedia from your computer. You can call your parents from a flip phone. And hey, you can sometimes engage with social media from a computer. The problem is that smartphones give children access to social media in literally every single waking hour of their lives, making it a constant that they must be extremely aware of.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#114

Post by peteradio » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:07 PM UTC

raincole wrote: post #43

23B1 wrote: post #24

This is one of those obvious correlations that for some reason everyone needs to question. It's not the cellphone itself that's the problem, it's the addictive content readily accessible therein. I'm no luddite, but it's pretty obvious that humans aren't meant to be bent over little black rectangles all day, addicted to our own insecurities.

The "obvious" correlations are the ones that need to be questioned the most.

Are we certain punching ourselves in the face is causing the bruising? It's almost too obvious and therefore necessitates extra scrutiny.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#115

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:07 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #100

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> Smartphones give children the ability to bully eachother at a scale unlike any other. No, social media does. I think it's important to be specific about that because a smartphone is just a tool, same as a laptop or a desktop computer is (when I was a kid there was plenty of bullying that went on via AIM!) Having access to e.g. Wikipedia is of enormous benefit to young people. Having the means to easily call your pa…

Smartphones are a force multiplier for social media. Social media waiting for you on the family PC at home is a lot different than sitting in class with your phone buzzing in your pocket.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#116

Post by wanderingbit » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:07 PM UTC

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

To those who dismiss with "correlation is not causation", you should share with them Haidt's in-depth article showing multiple experimental studies regarding social media and mental health, and how more social media use causes lower mental health:

https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-ill...

Key paragraph is:

"In sum, we found six quasi-experiments that looked at real-world outcomes in real-world settings when the arrival of Facebook or high-speed internet created large and sudden emergent network effects. All six found that when social life moves rapidly online, mental health declines, especially for girls. Not one study failed to find a harmful effect."

That being said, I think relying on a preponderance of evidence is acceptable in this case where the current status quo (particularly for teenage girls) is worrying for the vast majority of people in your community.

There isn't a good excuse to wait. There's no strong evidence that technology can "get us out of this".

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#117

Post by cauch » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:08 PM UTC

mech7654 wrote: post #95

makeitdouble wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that argument can have no refutation, jor any clear verification. You wont find a control group that lives the same life as these kids but without a cell phone. You can't teleport these kids 50 years earlier etc. So we're bound to hear hot takes that have no other substanciation than "it makes logical sense" My main issue with these hot takes is that it doesn't help, as smartphone aren't going away. In contra…

If you look at social science as an entire discipline (separate from "hard science"- which sounds dismissive- "Hard science" is able to achieve better precision because its experimental subjects are easier to control! in those ways it is easier!), it is so fraught with confounding factors and difficulties applying controls that eventually you have to choose a lower standard of evidence than "perfectly rigorous". One…

If it's a precautionary principle, it should be called so. One should say "We don't know if smartphone is the cause, but by precaution, ...", which is clearly not the conclusion provided here.

You cannot say: I don't know if X is harmful, but by precautionary principle, X should be kept an eye on, so I can say unscientific conclusions such as "X is harmful" and everyone who complain that it is scientifically poor are incorrect.

Also, there is also a risk i precautionary principle: hiding the real cause while hurting the "good usage".

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#118

Post by wussboy » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:09 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #100

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> Smartphones give children the ability to bully eachother at a scale unlike any other. No, social media does. I think it's important to be specific about that because a smartphone is just a tool, same as a laptop or a desktop computer is (when I was a kid there was plenty of bullying that went on via AIM!) Having access to e.g. Wikipedia is of enormous benefit to young people. Having the means to easily call your pa…

> Having access to e.g. Wikipedia is of enormous benefit to young people.

Unproven. I would argue it is enormously detrimental (reduces curiosity, reduces research ability, reduces perseverance, reduces skills required to determine truth, reduces social skills required to negotiate a position with others).

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#119

Post by jacquesm » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:09 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #100

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> Smartphones give children the ability to bully eachother at a scale unlike any other. No, social media does. I think it's important to be specific about that because a smartphone is just a tool, same as a laptop or a desktop computer is (when I was a kid there was plenty of bullying that went on via AIM!) Having access to e.g. Wikipedia is of enormous benefit to young people. Having the means to easily call your pa…

Smartphone = pushy social media in your pocket 24x7. In practice I suspect that amongst highschoolers the ratio of time spent between wikipedia and social media (and gaming as well) heavily favors the latter.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#120

Post by dcsommer » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:09 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #100

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> Smartphones give children the ability to bully eachother at a scale unlike any other. No, social media does. I think it's important to be specific about that because a smartphone is just a tool, same as a laptop or a desktop computer is (when I was a kid there was plenty of bullying that went on via AIM!) Having access to e.g. Wikipedia is of enormous benefit to young people. Having the means to easily call your pa…

Smartphones are not a prerequisite for access to educational resources online. Having an old school computer in a public part of the house is great for such things. Kids should just hang out and focus on each other when they're out and about. No need for a smartphone.