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Pharo 11

pharo.org

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Re: Pharo 11

#111

Post by canadianfella »

scotty79 wrote: post #86
542458 wrote: post #5

The "fusion of a developed program and development environment" idea is very cool. One (maybe dumb) question though: > Simple & powerful language: No constructors, no types declaration, no interfaces, no primitive types. Are constructors and primitive types really the sort of things that people find to be unnecessary complexity?

Primitive types are really annoying. If they were about what user needs not about underlying hardware they'd be fine. I dont care about int, long, float or double. I care about number to represent whole amount, or fractional amount or approximate amount with operations that work accordingly lile approximate comparison of approximate numbers. Approximations for when I care about approximation error and for when I don'…

I wish more languages handled it like Frink does.

https://frinklang.org/

Re: Pharo 11

#112

Post by [deleted] »

AllegedAlec wrote: post #59
jventura wrote: post #45

I got curious, downloaded and installed it on my computer. Checked the docs, and the next step was to download a stable image. Downloaded 11 (stable) and started it. Then blank stare to screen! What should I do? Lots of things to click on, and no text editor.. Searched for a tutorial on the website, and found nothing! I don't want to spend 30 minutes to look at some random videos of Virtual Reality in Thames or whate…

The Pharo Launcher has an in IDE tutorial window that opens when you first open the image . Apart from links to documents it also contains an interactive in-development environment teaching you the basics. One of the images is the Pharo MOOC. The website has links to several documents to get you started. No offense but you kind of have to look around it to not find the ways in which the Pharo team attemps to get you…

[deleted]

Re: Pharo 11

#113

Post by pianoben »

AllegedAlec wrote: post #59
jventura wrote: post #45

I got curious, downloaded and installed it on my computer. Checked the docs, and the next step was to download a stable image. Downloaded 11 (stable) and started it. Then blank stare to screen! What should I do? Lots of things to click on, and no text editor.. Searched for a tutorial on the website, and found nothing! I don't want to spend 30 minutes to look at some random videos of Virtual Reality in Thames or whate…

The Pharo Launcher has an in IDE tutorial window that opens when you first open the image . Apart from links to documents it also contains an interactive in-development environment teaching you the basics. One of the images is the Pharo MOOC. The website has links to several documents to get you started. No offense but you kind of have to look around it to not find the ways in which the Pharo team attemps to get you…

Most people have Expectations about the way things work - code in a text editor, write tests, run them. Check code into Github. Go to a website to find documentation.

Pharo defies all of those conventions (well, maybe not Github, but even that is unusual). People just aren't accustomed to in-IDE tutorials. It doesn't even occur to people that such things might exist.

It's hard to notice that which you never even imagined possible.

Re: Pharo 11

#114

Post by Jtsummers »

jdthedisciple wrote: post #100
kragen wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not that it doesn't have a text editor; most smalltalk windows have five or six text editors

Oh boy, how does one keep their sanity like that?!

The primary way of editing code in Pharo, Squeak, and similar implementations derived from Smalltalk-80 (but not all, some use the more familiar idiom of "many files in many directories") is to use one of the built-in (to the Smalltalk environment) browsers.

Select the package, class, and then method (or the options to create new ones) and the method will be in an editor pane for you. Start changing it, and the change is immediately applied once saved. No need to rebuild the world and restart the image. (Of course, that leads to some fun things where you can redefine True/False and break the image right there on the spot. Pharo seems to do a good job of blocking you from changing things like that so easily.)

Smalltalk code "lives" in a database. You interact with that database. The code is also serialized to a file if you happen to want more conventional access, but that's not the normal route. Though serialization to files is how Pharo and others allow you to interact with git and collaborate with other people.

Re: Pharo 11

#115

Post by igouy »

xept wrote: post #44
web3-is-a-scam wrote: post #18

As a rails developer - my introduction to Pharo started with this video: https://youtu.be/HOuZyOKa91o If you're not a ruby/rails developer you can still see how awesome it is, but for rubyists specifically it can really be quite mind blowing.

I feel anxious looking at the multitude of windows. Do you get used to it?

Yes and then you learn how use them together.

Re: Pharo 11

#116

Post by koito17 »

travisgriggs wrote: post #43
101008 wrote: post #14

I used Pharo in my Object Oriented course at the Univeristy (for my CS degree) and I was really surprised for this paradigm. We saw Haskell and Pharo and I was really happy to discover new things from a language point of view. It is hard to say that Java or any other imperative language is OO after seeing Smalltalk/Pharo. About the question if it's used in production, the teacher for that segment of the course was a…

> It is hard to say that Java or any other imperative language is OO after seeing Smalltalk/Pharo. This. It so frustrates me to see people trash talk on "OOP" in HN and other forums, where I know people never really got to really realize what it could really be about. Just hacky approximations. I'm sure that functional silver bullet will avoid this cycle some how. /s

This is one of my biggest frustrations about online programming discussions. The vast majority of complaints about OOP I've seen online are really complaints about Java and C++, and many of the problems are simply not present in Common Lisp or Smalltalk.

Re: Pharo 11

#117

Post by igouy »

klibertp wrote: post #95
jventura wrote: post #45

I got curious, downloaded and installed it on my computer. Checked the docs, and the next step was to download a stable image. Downloaded 11 (stable) and started it. Then blank stare to screen! What should I do? Lots of things to click on, and no text editor.. Searched for a tutorial on the website, and found nothing! I don't want to spend 30 minutes to look at some random videos of Virtual Reality in Thames or whate…

Well, they're consistent at least. It was exactly the same when I first tried Pharo, at version 2.something IIRC. Same in Pharo 5, 7, 9 (increments of 2 purely coincidental) and now with 11. I love Smalltalk. The language is great, incredibly powerful even though it rests on just a few simple concepts. The design and architecture of some of Smalltalk libraries is marvelous and should be made into UNESCO world heritag…

> On my Linux machine releases after 5 refused to as much as display anything

That seems close to misrepresentation, Pharo works OK.

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

Pharo 9.0.21 on quad-core 3.0GHz Intel® i5-3330® with 15.8 GiB of RAM and 2TB SATA disk drive; using Ubuntu™ 22.10 x86_64 GNU/Linux 5.19.0-29-generic

Re: Pharo 11

#118

Post by jacquesm »

jventura wrote: post #55
zabzonk wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pharo, like other smalltalks, doesn't really have much of a text editor - that's not how you write smalltalk code. instead, you use the browser, which has a text pane, to change/add things to classes (or indeed to objects). you have to think a bit different. and how do you expect to learn anything if you won't read or watch a tutorial?

> how do you expect to learn anything if you won't read or watch a tutorial? I wanted to follow a tutorial (or another guide) to learn about Pharo, but couldn't find any, at least in the official docs. That's the point I'm making!

Think 'emacs' not 'C'. Smalltalk based systems are compete runtimes, a tutorial for Pharo is here:

https://ceronio.net/2017/07/first-steps-with-pharo-smalltalk...

Re: Pharo 11

#119

Post by jacquesm »

igouy wrote: post #117
klibertp wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they're consistent at least. It was exactly the same when I first tried Pharo, at version 2.something IIRC. Same in Pharo 5, 7, 9 (increments of 2 purely coincidental) and now with 11. I love Smalltalk. The language is great, incredibly powerful even though it rests on just a few simple concepts. The design and architecture of some of Smalltalk libraries is marvelous and should be made into UNESCO world heritag…

> On my Linux machine releases after 5 refused to as much as display anything That seems close to misrepresentation, Pharo works OK. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... Pharo 9.0.21 on quad-core 3.0GHz Intel® i5-3330® with 15.8 GiB of RAM and 2TB SATA disk drive; using Ubuntu™ 22.10 x86_64 GNU/Linux 5.19.0-29-generic

GP says it didn't work for them as did the GGP, why would you suggest that this is 'close to misrepresentation' when it is simply two datapoints that may be different from the experiences of others (for instance yourself).

Re: Pharo 11

#120

Post by jacquesm »

bowsamic wrote: post #85
jventura wrote: post #45

I got curious, downloaded and installed it on my computer. Checked the docs, and the next step was to download a stable image. Downloaded 11 (stable) and started it. Then blank stare to screen! What should I do? Lots of things to click on, and no text editor.. Searched for a tutorial on the website, and found nothing! I don't want to spend 30 minutes to look at some random videos of Virtual Reality in Thames or whate…

[flagged]

Because the project competes for attention with a million other OSS projects out there and lowering the barrier to entry for newcomers is good practice for projects that want to stay alive.
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