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What you give up by moving into engineering management

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Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#111

Post by glogla »

mxuribe wrote: post #100
elzbardico wrote: post #82

To be frank? long term employability and short term job security. The lower levels of management are terrible because you don't actually manage much, and become just a glorified bellboy for upper management, passing messages back and forth. At the same time, due to disuse, your technical skills atrophy. So, it soon becomes a race to climb the corporate ladder or die.

> ...it soon becomes a race to climb the corporate ladder or die... Oh man, i'm at the dying stage (metaphorically). I made the mistake long ago of moving to management, and have regretted it for years. But, its somewhat weird for me in that any and all of my direct reports throughout all of my decades actually love me as a technical leader...they all really like working for me, stated that they're the most productiv…

Wouldn't architect role be something you're looking for? Of course, there's a lot of different types of architects and some are just bullshit slidemakers, but you could get some coding and a lot of complex problem solving in right architect role.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#112

Post by singleshot_ »

xnorswap wrote: post #55
siquick wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for 5 years at an American company in Australia and I heard this multiple times per day from my US colleagues - my conclusion after heard it said to the most basic questions was that it’s mostly a filler phrase used to buy time while the respondent thinks up an answer.

It's a culture thing, I had a similar experience after the company I worked at was bought out by an American company. In any exchange with the US, any question asked was responded to with, "That's a great question!". It was probably just filler but definitely came across as incredibly patronising to our ears.

Not super relevant but I’ve noticed recently that when I ask someone a question, they start their answer with the word “absolutely” even though the question was not a yes or no question.

Is this a time-filler like “that’s a great question” for extreme people pleasers? Or just an agreeability signal? To me it makes the answerer seem overeager to share. It could just be regional culture.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#113

Post by bl4ckm0r3 »

dasil003 wrote: post #110
bl4ckm0r3 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is definitely not universally true, and it's a red flag if you're hearing it a lot. not hearing it, seeing it. people don't really have time, will to change processes. In private settings they comment and complain about the inefficiencies, but no one spend time rethinking how things are done. (this is literally what pushed me to go higher in the ladder, so i could change that attitude and environment) > This c…

> I am saying having to deal with things like your manager asking you to force your team to come to work becase he wants to see the office alive, but not bothering to take the responsibility on the decision. Moving up the ladder means dealing with requests that may be ill informed from a ground-level perspective, your job as a manager is to reconcile those things. It's impossible to make an accurate read on the situa…

I did not say where I work or who these people are, I am not publicly airing anything, it's an example I gave to explain the problems people may face "moving up the ladder" which are much more complex to deal with as the personal opinions and management style are much less comparable in short term, compared to coding, and end up easily becoming a religious war (just like this conversation) and obviously the team is shielded and not aware of these discussions, but it sucks to be in that room and having to commit on doing things that go against your beliefs around culture and how to manage people. At the same time some people are cut for the corporate mindset and easily align or deal with these type of situation with a more detached approach, I am glad you handle this better than me. I still care about my values :)

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#114

Post by dasil003 »

bl4ckm0r3 wrote: post #113
dasil003 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am saying having to deal with things like your manager asking you to force your team to come to work becase he wants to see the office alive, but not bothering to take the responsibility on the decision. Moving up the ladder means dealing with requests that may be ill informed from a ground-level perspective, your job as a manager is to reconcile those things. It's impossible to make an accurate read on the situa…

I did not say where I work or who these people are, I am not publicly airing anything, it's an example I gave to explain the problems people may face "moving up the ladder" which are much more complex to deal with as the personal opinions and management style are much less comparable in short term, compared to coding, and end up easily becoming a religious war (just like this conversation) and obviously the team is s…

This is not a religious issue for me, as I stated I don't have the information to judge the situation, my goal was just to reflect how your initial message struck me as someone who has been in software engineering for 25 year and seen a lot of failure modes from all levels of leadership, management and ICs. Feel free to take it or leave it.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#115

Post by bl4ckm0r3 »

dasil003 wrote: post #114
bl4ckm0r3 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not say where I work or who these people are, I am not publicly airing anything, it's an example I gave to explain the problems people may face "moving up the ladder" which are much more complex to deal with as the personal opinions and management style are much less comparable in short term, compared to coding, and end up easily becoming a religious war (just like this conversation) and obviously the team is s…

This is not a religious issue for me, as I stated I don't have the information to judge the situation, my goal was just to reflect how your initial message struck me as someone who has been in software engineering for 25 year and seen a lot of failure modes from all levels of leadership, management and ICs. Feel free to take it or leave it.

It's less than 25 years (about 15) but very intense, and yeah I have had the luck to work in very different environments, countries and type of companies and I have seen amazing leaders and ICs and pretty average middle managers (the "average" part has nothing to do with personal performance, but average processes win over great individuals every time). I wanted to highlight that the higher you get in the ladder, the more the processes get you and suppress the individual qualities (good or bad). Sorry if my answer came out a bit negative, I am just saying that as an IC you are not exposed to these type of problems (as a matter of fact I have never experienced these types of problems as an IC). thanks for sharing your opinions!

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#116

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

stfutechbros wrote: post #101
syndacks wrote: post #84

If you draw a Venn Diagram, with one circle being technical skills and the other circle being leadership skills, the intersection is engineering management. Unfortunately this is not a natural combination for most people, and it’s why there are so many bad engineering managers out there.

How is that different if you replace "engineering" with anything else? _x_ management is _x_ plus leadership for all _x_.

It's not really. Good management is really hard. That being said, lots of other functions (sales especially) have a bunch of senior people who want to manage, so it's easier to pick the good ones.

In engineering/more technical fields there are less people who actually want to manage, so you end up picking from a smaller pool.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#117

Post by mxuribe »

elzbardico wrote: post #105
mxuribe wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...it soon becomes a race to climb the corporate ladder or die... Oh man, i'm at the dying stage (metaphorically). I made the mistake long ago of moving to management, and have regretted it for years. But, its somewhat weird for me in that any and all of my direct reports throughout all of my decades actually love me as a technical leader...they all really like working for me, stated that they're the most productiv…

If it serves of consolation, I always found that people who are not enamorated of power and have questionings about their leadership roles make the best leaders. And man, have you ever considered coding again as a side gig? maybe start your own business on the side?

Yeah i had a side hustle for several years, and found lots of the work quite rewarding (especially in the intellectual fulfillment sense). But if there is anywhere that i suck in life it's leading sales. I'm pretty good as a second banana to another sales lead...but since I ran a one-man show my sales acquisition record for my side hustle was abysmal - even though my existing clients at the time loved me! :-)

But, yeah i considering starting something up again but maybe partner with someone better at sales.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#118

Post by mxuribe »

glogla wrote: post #111
mxuribe wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...it soon becomes a race to climb the corporate ladder or die... Oh man, i'm at the dying stage (metaphorically). I made the mistake long ago of moving to management, and have regretted it for years. But, its somewhat weird for me in that any and all of my direct reports throughout all of my decades actually love me as a technical leader...they all really like working for me, stated that they're the most productiv…

Wouldn't architect role be something you're looking for? Of course, there's a lot of different types of architects and some are just bullshit slidemakers, but you could get some coding and a lot of complex problem solving in right architect role.

You hit the nail on the head there! My current role is as an architect...however my peers and i are really forced to be nothing more than bullshit slidemakers (senior IT at my current employer values the opinions of one of those big consultancies...leaving my peers and I to only focus on making slides - which is ridiculous and so sad...Anyway, yeah, I had the same idea as what you receommended - basically getting an architect role - but so far it has been vastly far from ideal. I tried applying for other architect roles at other employers, but none (so far) have sound palatable; either they're some sort of the same slidemaking bullshit, or they're looking for someone who has been an architect for 20 years (which i have not been this role for that long), etc. I'll keep looking for archi roles...but we'll see. I do appreciate your recommendation, and very much enjoyed learning a new (and true!) vocabulary term of: bullshit slidemaker! Thanks! :-)

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#119

Post by topologie »

Interesting article...

As a side note, I have noticed that sometimes people that move into management from a technical position seem to not be fully aware that management is not only about managing projects and keeping track of people timely executing a project, and/or giving some guidance when a project gets a bit blocked, but also about growing people to their fullest potential and trying to understand how to integrate these people's unique abilities into a more cohesive whole, instead of different parts who do exactly what you want them to do, not holistically at all.

There's also a big empathic component to the job that I have noticed some people with technical backgrounds seem to lack. It's almost as if there's a tradeoff pattern of sorts: "Good Technically, Bad with People" vs "Good with People, Bad Technically." I would even dare say that I think the second version is better, since it's easier for people to grow technically than it is for them to grow emotionally... At least that's what I've perceived in the past...

I've met people who are technically magnificent, were amazing individual contributors, and who can plan a project perfectly but who just seem to me to not be able to properly handle the more human side of the equation. They treat people more like tools than actual complex humans... This leads to just "good enough" workgroups that get the job done, but not fully fledged integrated teams that can innovate and actually grow in a more efficient manner.

I urge everyone who is either a manager or is thinking about moving into a managerial position to check out:

Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration

by Ed Catmull, co-founder of Pixar. He is the perfect example of how a technical person can become a great manager in every single way, and the book gives really clear guidance on how to follow the same path.

Last thing: A bit more technical, but the following article/paper is a bit connected: https://necsi.edu/a-mathematical-theory-of-interpersonal-int...

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#120

Post by doktorhladnjak »

abtinf wrote: post #21
doktorhladnjak wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was one of the hardest things for me as a manager too. You have to own the company’s message to your reports (and others) even if you disagree with it or don’t know how it came to be.

> You have to own the company’s message to your reports (and others) even if you disagree with it or don’t know how it came to be. Why?

Others have flagged the legal obstacles. More practically, not doing so can affect your own perceived performance and career trajectory. There's also the problem that reports don't take the following message very well: "you're getting screwed. It's not my fault. It's the system."

There's a reason I said this was in the past. I felt like you had to become dead inside to succeed.

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