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Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

theguardian.com

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Re: Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

#111

Post by Moru »

groestl wrote: post #93
tda wrote: post #81

I remember when my kids were younger they always had difficulty climbing onto the cooler play structures. Somehow the first few steps of the entrance are the most difficult. So I just had to help them get on and they would be fine. At first this annoyed me a bit, but later I realized that this must be intentional; if the kid manages to get in/on the play structure in the first place, they'll probably be fine. If they…

Came here to post this. I noticed as well, the first step is always adjusted to the target age group. So when he was smaller, my kid couldn't get into the structures that were not meant for him, but year after year more stuff became accessible. There were also structures with multiple difficulty levels at once, and different entrance obstacles tuned to them. Pretty neat I must say.

I always expected this to be the case, everything designed with some sort of safety aspect for kid playgrounds. Until I was in one of those indoor playground companies where you pay an entrance fee. I was climbing around with my three year old daughter when we ended up at the top of the structure. There was a big sign with lots of text that a three year old can't read. It said something about four meter vertical drop slide. There were no hard places where I had to help her up to get up to this point. Luckily I'm not a very trusting parent. This place was later shut down because of lots of safety issues. Their defence was that they are a Café, not a kids playground. Weird even for swedish standards.

Re: Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

#112

Post by magicalhippo »

wnevets wrote: post #108
magicalhippo wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I know there's a fair bit of research linking improved motor skills and social skills with later academic performance. Here are some quotes from a review article[1]: Research presented in this section indicates that removing play from early childhood classrooms may actually undermine intended achievement-oriented outcomes. Play enhances attention, memory, self-regulation, and overall academic achievement th…

> Research presented in this section indicates that removing play from early childhood classrooms may actually undermine intended achievement-oriented outcomes. That is absolutely not the same as having an overly safe or "soft" playgrounds.

You wanted research that showed how playgrounds could affect kids later in life. I tried to show that research suggest that indeed overly safe playgrounds can do that.

In my other comment on this article I mention a playground designer I knew, and this was one of the things he worked hard to change. He wanted playgrounds where kids could feel danger, so they could develop and get challenged, but that were still sufficiently safe.

A lot of playgrounds here were built to be as safe as possible, removing any feeling of danger and excitement in the process. This lead to less play and reduced development of motor and social skills.

Re: Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

#113

Post by texec »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #25

>A sign urges parents to take off their children’s cycle helmets in order to eliminate a strangulation risk. That's ironic - PPE that becomes dangerous in a different environment.

For workplace protection helmets there are two European norms: EN 12492 for climbers and mountaineers requires >50kg holding force on the chin strap, to not come loose in case of a fall. EN 397 for industrial hard hats (on the ground) require chin straps to open on <25kg, to protect the wearer from strangulation in case of a fall.

Re: Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

#114

Post by danielheath »

dan-robertson wrote: post #101
swimfar wrote: post #13

It doesn't look like they are building risk into the playgrounds, as much as they are building the feeling of risk. which isn't necessarily a bad thing. This seems like a compromise that should be seen as better, or at least acceptable to both extremes of parents. "The maximum fall height in the Triitopia structure’s spiderweb is 1.8 metres." That's not a risky fall, if you're falling onto a rope net. Also, "The Trii…

I wouldn’t want to fall 1.8m and land awkwardly, even if it might not permanently injure me.

Kids strength-to-weight ratio is drastically improved. My youngest fell that far when he was nearly 3, and was merely annoyed about it. An 80kg adult who gets unlucky falling that distance is headed for the hospital.

Re: Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

#115

Post by wnevets »

magicalhippo wrote: post #112
wnevets wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Research presented in this section indicates that removing play from early childhood classrooms may actually undermine intended achievement-oriented outcomes. That is absolutely not the same as having an overly safe or "soft" playgrounds.

You wanted research that showed how playgrounds could affect kids later in life. I tried to show that research suggest that indeed overly safe playgrounds can do that. In my other comment on this article I mention a playground designer I knew, and this was one of the things he worked hard to change. He wanted playgrounds where kids could feel danger, so they could develop and get challenged, but that were still suffi…

> I tried to show that research suggest that indeed overly safe playgrounds can do that

But you didn't, your post is play vs no play. No one is arguing that no play has zero affect on children and their adulthood. All work and no play makes jack a dull boy.

Playgrounds for children are a relative new invention, especially for the unwashed masses. The notion that children require a dangerous feeling playground to become well rounded and mentally tough adults is silly.

Re: Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

#116

Post by YawningAngel »

wizofaus wrote: post #80
sircastor wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The state” is a generic term that refers to the government, local, provincial, or larger.

I'd suggest it's not typically thought of as including local government. It is a peculiarly overloaded term though, particularly if you live in a country where "state" is a key governmental/administrative division! In the usage here - "nanny state" - I'd agree it can include local government and indeed even organisations operating below that level (it might just be a single school board making "nanny state" decisions…

I think it very much is thought of as inclusive of local government, at least in countries that aren't federal.

Re: Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

#117

Post by jkepler »

PoignardAzur wrote: post #37
chmod775 wrote: post #15

These things are ubiquitous in Berlin: https://stage.berliner-seilfabrik.com/wp-content/uploads/201... They're not actually that high to an adult, but I have childhood memories of these seeming somewhat tall and scary. On an average one, a young child can fall 4-6 times their own height (but not straight, you'll get buffered by the structure as you go down).

Pretty common in Paris too. I wish they made versions that were socially acceptable for adults to climb. These things were awesome .

The difference I've seen between these in Paris (and elsewhere in France) and the few I saw in Berlin was that nearly all the French playgrounds have that spongy artificial ground, while the German playgrounds more often have a natural surface---sand, wood chips (as in the photo), or dirt.

Re: Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

#118

Post by jkepler »

screwturner68 wrote: post #71
zabzonk wrote: post #5

I don't know, kids these days. You should have seen what we had to contend with in the 60s - huge lumps of flesh mangling metal, swinging at terrifying angles, throwing small children off in all directions. And no wimpy rubber mats to catch them. Sometimes, I wonder that I survived.

maybe it's just my old man memory but when I was young in the 70's there was always one or two kids in a cast, usually a broken arm -it was a bit of a badge of honor and something for everyone to sign. Now I almost never see a kid in a cast maybe medicine has gotten a lot better and things seem to have had the entire danger aspect removed from them. I wonder if play today is boring or there is so much safety that kid…

I heard a researcher speaking on how litigation against playground owners in the 1970s in the USA over injuries and in one case a child fatality drove the more stringent playground regulations. However, the unintended consequence was an increase in children's long bone injuries, and her research suggested that this is due to kids not learning to navigate risk on the "safer" playgrounds and eventually getting injured elsewhere where the ground isn't forgiving like all the artificial playground surfaces.

Take you kids to play in the woods!

Re: Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

#119

Post by barathr »

My favorite example of a classic super dangerous and fun park: Dennis the Menace park in Monterey, CA:

https://playgroundology.wordpress.com/category/dennis-the-me...

There was a full size real steam locomotive that kids could climb inside, under, and through, and strange spinning things made of steel that were far off the ground that you could old get on by jumping off a concrete wall onto it.

Re: Learning the ropes: why Germany is building risk into its playgrounds (2021)

#120

Post by [deleted] »

nicbou wrote: post #24
mschuster91 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Children even started wearing yellow safety vests to school all of a sudden. Given how many accidents happen on the way to school ("Schulwegunfälle", yes we have a dedicated word for it), it's absolutely necessary. 62k accidents in 2021, and 16 dead kids [1]. A large part of the cause is how absurdly car-centric our cities are - and yet, we're harmless compared to the US. [1] https://www.dguv.de/de/zahlen-fakten/sc…

It's getting better, at least in Berlin. Besides, the quality of the drivers in Germany is far better than in the US in my experience.

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