More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships • Hacker News Board

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#111

Post by 331c8c71 » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:43 PM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

> almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost

Not quite so for immigrants who are likely prevalent (or close) in grad schools.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#112

Post by vehemenz » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:44 PM UTC

hgsgm wrote: post #82

jimkleiber wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised you didn't include anything about meeting people for work, romance, friendship, or other social benefit, as for many, that can be a huge part of college.

That's only because almost everyone desirable goes there. If people stopped going, they could meet elsewhere.

It sounds plausible, but university towns (at least in the US) are pretty unique in that they are dense and young people can afford to live there. You could say commuter campuses don't have the same social scene because not "everyone desirable goes there," but I'd wager it's more due to students driving in from 45 minutes away rather than living amongst each other.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#113

Post by Eumenes » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:45 PM UTC

I didn't go to college, nor did a few of my best friends - we all work in tech/IT. Careers spanning development to sales and IT. We make good income, have little if any debt, and all own homes. Compare us to some of our peers from high school who went to college, many still live at home and have some pretty typical Fortune 500 paper pusher jobs. I think what set us apart was our general interest in nerdy/tech things from a young age. We built computers, modded video games, learned to code, worked on cars, etc. We all came from very low to middle class backgrounds too. Didn't have parents uber concerned about their legacy and if their kid was going to be a "loser" or not. Ironically, most of us made more $$ than those parents by our mid to late 20s.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#114

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:45 PM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

[deleted]

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#115

Post by WanderPanda » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

4. Time spent outside the rat race without leaving a hole in your cv

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#116

Post by gloryjulio » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

tempsy wrote: post #108

hgsgm wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what parent&thread said. Technical trade was mentioned as a category

yes i know. i’m just clarifying for the above comment that all lower ranked colleges are not worth attending

> lots of low tier unis

My original post is still up there you know. I never said ALL

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#117

Post by anonuser123456 » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:48 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #40

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

>It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought.

I am skeptical of this claim. In my experience, it just enshrines a different set of beliefs into students rather than new paradigms of critical thinking.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#118

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:48 PM UTC

sergiomattei wrote: post #93

Honestly, what a disgrace. It’s almost like capitalism has an agenda to turn every living soul into a productive machine rather than a free-thinking, well-rounded individual. Education is meant to prepare you to think and live, not just prepare you to work. I’m glad I didn’t drop out in my first year to chase the Silicon Valley dream, because I’d be a much more manipulable, less capable individual if I did.

We very obviously aren't doing it, but that sort of education should be part of high school, at least for the students that are engaged enough to benefit from it.

The current trend to water down what is available so that everyone can check the 12 year box regardless of effort or interest is a terrible waste.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#119

Post by pacaro » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #98

azinman2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: critical analysis. I agree with you that inconvenient truths now get muzzled because they don’t fit an acceptable meta-narrative. This is very problematic for society and when taken to the maximum, can lead to thinks like Cambodia’s attempt at restarting society by killing all those who didn’t fit the model they were looking for. > If that's what you are hungry for, college is perhaps even your least likely bet.…

Re second point, I mean something else. 200 years ago I had to go to university because why? That's where the books and smart people were concentrated. So I would pay a lot of money and physically relocate myself to access those books and people. Now? I can study online, I can read, I can converse with super bright people of my chosing without the friction and limits of doing that in a college environment.

There's a two edged sword here, both for the university student and the independent learner

Learning in a structured environment provides access to the orthodox in the field of study. This can be very valuable to limit unnecessary exploration of blind avenues (there is of course such a thing as necessary exploration of blind avenues)

For those who progress through the academy, the risk is that they become narrow thinkers

For those without access to the structure, the risk is that they become cranks

These aren't absolutes, but they are observable trends

[Edit: are —> aren't]

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#120

Post by mfer » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #62

mfer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I wouldn’t dismiss its value in being taught how to think. Few universities teach how to think. Most teach what to think. Critical thinking, reasoning through ideas and concepts, and research are often lacking. > I wish there was a bigger focus in physics, math, and philosophy for those who didn’t know what to do I don't buy that. You can't by a psychiatrist. You can't be a medical doctor or nutritionist. There…

The context within the social and economic structure of society matters, too. Very few good quality careers are accessible for the self-taught individual.

Who defines good quality?

Is this compensation? Is this satisfaction with what you do? Is this ability to pay your bills and save enough? How much does one need (what's enough)?

This is all complicated and we tend to focus on compensation. That's why so many people stay in jobs for the pay while they hate the work.

There are lots of good quality jobs out there if you expand your definition beyond "highest compensation". I know people who switched and were much happier in trades. They felt far more satisfied, could daily see their accomplishment, and meet their bills (and then some).

Where did you get your view on good quality careers from?