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Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

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Re: Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

#111

Post by unglaublich »

themaninthedark wrote: post #99
cwkoss wrote: post #86

Sounds like the real villains are the credit card companies who have the market power to enforce fees on cancelled payments. They are so entrenched no one is even questioning their position anymore. Visa and Mastercard are massive drains on our economy - it's ridiculous how unquestioningly their 3% tax on commerce is accepted.

Cash still works and if you can get enough people to go back to using it then credit cards will have to change or be more ripe for disruption.

Not really, because you have to embed the CC costs into the retail price. So even if you pay cash, you pay for CC fees indirectly. While only the actual CC users get some minor cashback. So non-CC payers have the highest cost.

Re: Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

#112

Post by randomdata »

cwkoss wrote: post #86

Sounds like the real villains are the credit card companies who have the market power to enforce fees on cancelled payments. They are so entrenched no one is even questioning their position anymore. Visa and Mastercard are massive drains on our economy - it's ridiculous how unquestioningly their 3% tax on commerce is accepted.

Seems to me that the real villain is the network interchange companies. The credit companies which use said networks are numerous and are in reasonable competition with each other, continually eroding their share of the transaction fee to provide more and more compelling 'rewards' to their customers.

Once upon a time people dreamed that blockchain would provide the network, operating in a distributed fashion that isn't dependent on one or two companies, and bet big on it becoming that, but obviously that didn't pan out.

Re: Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

#113

Post by closewith »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #109
pcarolan wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia, this is regulated and they can charge no more than 1.5%. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/card-surcharges This could be changed overnight with 1 piece of legislation.

That article is about businesses charging excessive surcharges to customers (e.g. Jetstar back in the day charging 5% extra for Visa/MasterCard, when it only cost them 0.7%). There are no laws against high processing fees; Afterpay takes around 8% for example.

There is in the EU, at least:

> Specifically, the regulation:

> * caps interchange fees at 0.2% of the transaction value for consumer debit cards and at 0.3% for consumer credit cards;

From https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-...

No cap on corporate cards, though.

Re: Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

#114

Post by bastardoperator »

bombcar wrote: post #8

Does anyone know if the "real big" merchants like Walmart have to pay the fee? I assume they're so large they can sit on the processors and squeeze them (I know Costco does, they pay 0% fees in-store because Visa is so hungry to be their processor).

I thought Walmart bought their own merchant bank/processor to avoid fees which sound like something walmart would do but I can't confirm, I know they're looking to expand on fintech services to consumers/business and that's difficult to do without some level of processing control.

Re: Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

#115

Post by patmcc »

cwkoss wrote: post #86

Sounds like the real villains are the credit card companies who have the market power to enforce fees on cancelled payments. They are so entrenched no one is even questioning their position anymore. Visa and Mastercard are massive drains on our economy - it's ridiculous how unquestioningly their 3% tax on commerce is accepted.

From a user perspective, I get a lot of benefit from credit cards. I get cash back, an interest-free advance, the ability to do chargebacks, very low liability for lost/stolen cards, etc.

If I got 1% or 2% lower prices, would I give all that up? I doubt it.

Re: Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

#116

Post by soupfordummies »

themaninthedark wrote: post #99
cwkoss wrote: post #86

Sounds like the real villains are the credit card companies who have the market power to enforce fees on cancelled payments. They are so entrenched no one is even questioning their position anymore. Visa and Mastercard are massive drains on our economy - it's ridiculous how unquestioningly their 3% tax on commerce is accepted.

Cash still works and if you can get enough people to go back to using it then credit cards will have to change or be more ripe for disruption.

Yeah, I'm really thinking of going cash-only personally just out of principle. Not that it will affect anything other than my own inconvenience though.

I went to a Chase last week. They didn't have any cash. I filled out a withdrawal slip and finally found a teller. She just told me to use the ATM. I didn't have my card with me. That's why I went in the branch and used the withdrawal slip.

And on top of that there's so many businesses that just refuse to accept cash now.

Re: Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

#117

Post by DanHulton »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #109
pcarolan wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia, this is regulated and they can charge no more than 1.5%. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/card-surcharges This could be changed overnight with 1 piece of legislation.

That article is about businesses charging excessive surcharges to customers (e.g. Jetstar back in the day charging 5% extra for Visa/MasterCard, when it only cost them 0.7%). There are no laws against high processing fees; Afterpay takes around 8% for example.

That, too, could be solved with 1 piece of legislation.

Re: Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

#118

Post by massysett »

amethyst wrote: post #108
themaninthedark wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash still works and if you can get enough people to go back to using it then credit cards will have to change or be more ripe for disruption.

The convenience of credit cards — and customers' willingness to spend more when they are accepted — is worth more to retailers and customers than the processing fees. I for one never carry cash, and I will happily pay any extra transaction fees from local businesses for the opportunity to reduce the size of my wallet, the cost/risk of casual theft, and the need to queue at an ATM for cash as part of my daily life.

Debit offers most of these benefits though, at much lower expense.

I use credit because with the rebates it’s rational for me. If retailers offered a sufficient cash discount to wipe out the 1% rebate, I would move most of my volume to debit or even to direct debit.

An example is my cell phone bill. Verizon offers such a huge discount for direct debit that I do it. Otherwise I would certainly use credit.

Re: Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

#119

Post by makestuff »

Alupis wrote: post #93
gowld wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refunds are still frictionless for consumers. It's vendors who have to maintain product quality and prevent fraud to avoid returns. It's not Square's job to make sure that a vendor's product is high-quality or that customers really want to keep the products they buy. Credit cards mostly work the same way. https://www.cardfellow.com/blog/credit-card-refund-fees

Majority of returns are for BS reasons, regardless of how quality your listings and products are. "Item Defective" - Unopened factory sealed, tamper-proof blister pack. "Not Received In Time" - Delivered 3 days ahead of schedule. "Too Small" - Item clearly says in multiple places, and even demonstrates in images, the item is 2mm in diameter. The result? Everyone pays more for the products so we can support a few bad…

Another big one is clothing. Order two sizes and send the one back that doesn't fit.

Re: Square to no longer return processing fees when buyers are issued a refund

#120

Post by falcolas »

jsonne wrote: post #104
falcolas wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like the usual "big businesses get extra considerations that small businesses do not". And since small businesses are the vast majority in number, negotiation is absolutely not something they can rely upon. Or, to put another way, someone selling handmade goods at a fair using Square will never have more negotiation power than "if you don't like it, leave".

You negotiate by not using square and using an alternative system in that scenario. There are price competitive options even for small businesses. The UI might be clunkier and the equipment more dated but that is the tradeoff.

I believe a sibling comment said it best:

> In practice, [switching vendors] is an extremely weak signal, is swamped out by market changes, assumes zero cost of switching, ignores network effects, etc. One of many reasons why I distrust economist’s assertion of fairness.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34999021

I'd also pedantically point out that this isn't really a negotiation tactic - negotiation generally involves communication.

"to confer with another so as to arrive at the settlement of some matter"

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