Well, he really struck a ligthning rod, people here seem to be arguing that,
1. He is wrong, PM are not at all like that
2. He is wrong, ofcourse that is what PM does
3. He is wrong, the criticism is written the wrong way
Amusing…
B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers
111–120 of 148 posts
Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers
#112Though mentions enterprise space (B2B), should mention that in hardware and software consumer product companies the product manager roles does not show much value. Investing in Design+Engg gives maximum return. These two disciplines have other ones around them like project management, overall product owner (PO, General Manager), etc. It is really weird when one sees PMs being mentioned as the one who talks to custome…
I agree that design+engineering is the optimal team structure.
For some reason, I’ve found lately that designers don’t want to work with engineers. This happens regardless of whether or not the engineer and designer work in the same office. Because of this, designers come up with prototypes that are more expensive to implement than what is required to meet the customer’s needs. So at some point, engineers have to have awkward conversations with designers about trimming scope.
This seems to me why we have PMs: engineers naturally avoid the awkward conversations, build half-fancy things because they have a budget to meet and “it wasn’t in the design,” and no one is happy with the final product.
I feel like there is still a better way out there, and I think it involves engineering and design both breaking out of their shells, and that’s where a PM can really help.
Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers
#113Why has every product person I've worked with been obsessed with controlling teams and communication rather than obsessing over the customer and the market? Friends say the same thing too. It makes me roll my eyes whenever someone retorts "you just need to hire the /good/ PMs" Even my worst sales/tech colleagues, I've never had as much conflict and annoyance as with product people
Because those skills require actual experience and domain-expertice . You can't factory print MBAs that actually give you skills, but you can create the illusion of value by teaching something , so they throw out a bunch of random econ and ways to control employees and everything gets a little bit worse everytime someone graduates
Unfortunately, domain experience is no panacea. Dealing with product people that don't understand technology but do understand the domain is equally as frustrating.
Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers
#114I've seen PMs "scope creep" themselves to boost their CVs for when they leave and go somewhere else. These PMs suck. They are the type to lead meetings I was a PM for 4 years in a startup. I helped the engineers avoid (most) meetings, I was obsessed with our customers and their pain points - and spoke with them frequently; as well hyper-obsessed with the competition and where we could improve. I took suggestions from…
can I hire you?
Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers
#115> If you are a startup B2B founder, I want to give you one piece of advice, don’t ever give a lot of power to product managers as long as you want to innovate. Take your most competent sales person and put him in charge of the product This is much worse. You'll end up doing what individual customers ask, lose product strategy and run the risk of having a guy in sales deciding the next features on the fly during sales…
It sounds like you haven’t ever worked with a good salesperson.
(I realize the irony of this comment.)
Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers
#116This is overstating the case by a lot. I guess I agree that innovation should not come from the management layer of a company, organization and motivation should. But, I have worked with great PMs who multiplied the effectiveness of their teams, and they were indispensible. A lot of people who should not be PMs end up in PM roles, but I wouldn't generalize that to the whole profession.
> First most product managers believe that the most important thing to do, is to interview users, look at data of usage, and then take some obvious bet to take the best decisions
Heaven forfend! We've got to put a stop to that sort of behavior. I agree with the author, people should be making big, incomprehensible bets without talking to users or looking at data first.
Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers
#117I've seen PMs "scope creep" themselves to boost their CVs for when they leave and go somewhere else. These PMs suck. They are the type to lead meetings I was a PM for 4 years in a startup. I helped the engineers avoid (most) meetings, I was obsessed with our customers and their pain points - and spoke with them frequently; as well hyper-obsessed with the competition and where we could improve. I took suggestions from…
Music to my soul.
Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers
#118Ironic that the author calls PMs "not very smart at making product decisions" while the author is not smart enough to understand the role of sales or product.
Also, innovation is not an end in itself. The question is do, PMs add value?
The author is right that the founder is the best product manager and should only handover to a dedicated PM once the business is ready to scale.
Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers
#119Why has every product person I've worked with been obsessed with controlling teams and communication rather than obsessing over the customer and the market? Friends say the same thing too. It makes me roll my eyes whenever someone retorts "you just need to hire the /good/ PMs" Even my worst sales/tech colleagues, I've never had as much conflict and annoyance as with product people
Many "product" managers are actually lower level project managers. Some companies don't know the difference.
Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers
#120As soon as an article states you can use “product manager” and “project manager” interchangeably, you can immediately assume the author has no idea what they’re talking about. Convenient this article did that early on, saves everyone a lot of time.
What are these two roles about? What differentiates them? Asking genuinely as someone not in the tech sector.
The key responsibility (and purpose) of a project manager is to manage and organize the execution of a project so that it achieves the goals which were defined for that project.
The key responsibility (and purpose) of a product manager is to provide a coherent vision of what the product needs to be successful and define what the ongoing projects' goals should be to effectively improve that product.
Engineer - how to build; project manager - how to organize building; product manager - what to build.