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So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

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Re: So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

#111

Post by a_bonobo »

kypro wrote: post #106

I always heard people talk about how "open source is broken", but I'm honestly in shock after reading this. Is this normal? That one guy can contribute code that is used on thousands of the top websites worldwide and not one of the numerous multi-billion dollar companies that use his code are even willing to donate an amount equivalent to an average developer's salary? I mean, how is this that possible? It's not like…

>It's not like when a company the size of Spotify uses core-js they just add it to their project without thinking. No, they know how important the project is.

The devs at Spotify know how important that project is. But the people who control the money, middle and upper management, might now even know what Javascript is. Why would they spend money for something that's free? They're under pressure to cut costs anyway.

Throwing dollars at MS or Oracle, on the other hand, is nice for managers because you get service, accountability, responsibility, guarantees, and lawyers to talk to for that money. Money is paranoid. Open source can't give you that, it's always only one poor coder.

Re: So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

#112

Post by ufmace »

cyral wrote: post #72
btown wrote: post #67

From this article, Denis Pushkarev seems to be a remarkably principled developer in a horrible situation, and I admire his commitment to this project. Setting that aside, though, is anyone else alarmed that such a widely used project has exactly one maintainer who is able to push arbitrary changes without review? Especially one already in legal trouble and significant debt, unable to travel, for a project embedded in…

Your first paragraph reminded me of this article: https://david-gilbertson.medium.com/im-harvesting-credit-car... Imagine this scenario taking place with this package if someone got ahold of his NPM account.

Oooh thanks, I had been looking to find that article again for a while and couldn't track it down for anything.

In a completely unrelated matter, Google search results quality has really declined in the last few years...

Re: So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

#113

Post by kodt »

lelandfe wrote: post #61
robflynn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The open source community can be wild sometimes. Back when I was still maintainer and lead dev for Gaim (not Pidgin), I would occasionally get downright hateful people e-mailing me for not implementing whatever feature they thought needed to be implemented, or not getting it implemented quickly enough. One guy managed to get ahold of my cell phone number somehow and called me at 4am to discuss "his ideas" with me for…

Old coworker of mine was/is(?) secretly the primary contributor to a a major console emulator. He revealed it to me only after working together for about 4 years. He keeps it incognito because the vitriol his alias receives from impassioned members of the community makes him afraid of getting doxxed. He showed me some of them. I don't blame him.

Those are 100% just people who want all their pirated games to work properly and have no technical interest in the emulator.

Re: So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

#114

Post by kodt »

Dalewyn wrote: post #66
linkdd wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a dev releases his work free-as-in-libre and/or free-as-in-beer, they don't get to complain if the donations are "insufficient". Of course they get to complain. Complaining and doing nothing to change the situation is what's problematic. Doing work without reward, even if you did not expect any in the first place, can be soul-sucking, and it is totally normal to complain about it. You don't do FOSS for the recog…

>Of course they get to complain. No, they don't. They specifically waived any compensation by licensing their work for free-as-in-libre and/or free-as-in-beer. If they want to have social and legal standing to complain, they should have demanded compensation upfront. >You don't do FOSS for the recognition/glory, but complaining about the hatred, hypocrisy, and complete lack of respect of the industry towards FOSS is…

Surely you can complain about receiving hate mail and unsolicited vitriol.

Re: So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

#115

Post by DanHulton »

ricardobeat wrote: post #65

I can sympathize with the author's troubles, and wish he finds a well-paid position that still allows him to work on OSS. That said, the idea that companies would pay for a JS library that is patching browser support is wild. Practically nobody pays for JS modules except for very specific niches (e.g. a charting library) or product/technical support. Especially when it's an indirect dependency of tools you use. Maybe…

The idea that they _don't_ pay for it is wild, honestly. There's no FOSS equivalent in so many other industries - they pay for every part of their supply chain and yet still somehow make a profit. You can't open a hotdog stand and use "FOSS hotdogs".

The whole point of the post is that the FOSS model doesn't work and that sucks. I don't know what the answer to that is, and neither does he, but the answer certainly isn't "oh well."

Also, I feel you should read or reread the article - he explicitly responds to your last two paragraphs in there. Babel specifically has said they're not interested in doing the work that core-js is doing, and there are clearly _not_ thousands of people willing to step in and fill the void of core-js. They've had many opportunities before, including when everyone hated him for asking for financial support and the web seemingly united against him, and when he was stuck in prison for months, not maintaining anything. And yet core-js is still there at the forefront, because of the passion and his willingness to put up with too much abuse.

Re: So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

#116

Post by dr_kretyn »

fragmede wrote: post #49
akudha wrote: post #26

In one of my previous jobs, my CTO asked me who I thought was the most important person in the company was. I wasn’t sure. He pointed to the lady who was responsible for entering and maintaining data, on which the entire business was built upon. She was a quiet person, who did her job exceptionally well. Yet, most people didn’t know her or didn’t realize her importance. I am certain she wasn’t paid that well either.…

What I'm really struggling with is how much this contrasts with the story for the developers of Dwarf Fortress, who don't get that same hate and vitro piled on them, and in fact, people throw money at them because they want the developers to have money. To the tune of like $9 million or something! Whereas this guy, pouring his heart into something useful and not for fun, gets all this hate shoveled his way? I really…

People playing the game (Dwarf Fortress) chose to play it and likely enjoy it. Those who use core-js likely need to use it to solve some weird problems, likely occuring while they're working on something else.

Myself i hate working in JavaScript ecosystem and every few months, when i need to update one of my packages, something is broken. I appreciate every person that worked on libs that i use but i hate everyone of those packages.

Re: So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

#117

Post by ufmace »

kypro wrote: post #106

I always heard people talk about how "open source is broken", but I'm honestly in shock after reading this. Is this normal? That one guy can contribute code that is used on thousands of the top websites worldwide and not one of the numerous multi-billion dollar companies that use his code are even willing to donate an amount equivalent to an average developer's salary? I mean, how is this that possible? It's not like…

The problem that a lot of people don't get is that corporations can't just donate money to things like that to be nice. They have accounting and legal obligations, they can't just throw money around for funsies. If you phrase things their way, like selling them a product on contract, you can easily get tens of thousands from them. But a "please donate" link on your site won't get anything.

Re: So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

#118

Post by briantakita »

zymhan wrote: post #85
jackblemming wrote: post #80

He has made multiple posts like this and it always reeks of entitlement and disdain for his user base. Charge money if you want money. Don't give something for free and then complain. The real reason he doesn't charge is nobody would pay or someone would immediately fork the project and do it for free. The point of large open source projects like this is to parlay it into career opportunities, not expect every instal…

> The point of large open source projects like this is to parlay it into career opportunities Yeah, you are in the minority with that belief.

>> The point of large open source projects like this is to parlay it into career opportunities

> Yeah, you are in the minority with that belief.

The OP does have a platform, thanks to his work. If he did not diligently pour his creative talent into core-js & without it's widespread usage, he would probably not have the audience & we wouldn't be having a discussion about him or his situation. He does have a platform which he most likely could monetize.

He does have a platform which he most likely could monetize. It's like a Youtuber who gains a large audience. Youtube does not pay much & many subjects are demonitized, yet many Youtubers are creative in monetization. Of course a big advantage of having one's face on the screen talking to a large audience is attention, making it easier to get the message out & to create a market.

I do plenty of open source work & my partner was a prominent early Youtuber. It's not easy & takes a mostly different skillset than just creating code or content, but the opportunity is there. Some are quite talented at creating code/content & monetizing code/content. I'm not so talented at the monetization aspect, but I see the opportunity is there. I for one, use open source as a way to share code between my projects...making it easier, via IP licensing, to reuse code.

I would personally love to see more people sharing on how they use their creative talents, hard work, & audiences to earn a living. I think there is a better way than relying on donations. For example, the creator/audience relationship on platforms like Patreon or Rumble seem like a way to earn money in a dignified manner.

Re: So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

#119

Post by Dalewyn »

kodt wrote: post #114
Dalewyn wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of course they get to complain. No, they don't. They specifically waived any compensation by licensing their work for free-as-in-libre and/or free-as-in-beer. If they want to have social and legal standing to complain, they should have demanded compensation upfront. >You don't do FOSS for the recognition/glory, but complaining about the hatred, hypocrisy, and complete lack of respect of the industry towards FOSS is…

Surely you can complain about receiving hate mail and unsolicited vitriol.

Absolutely, that bullshit is 300% unwarranted regardless the circumstances.

I'm arguing that complaining about lack of compensation is stupid and hypocritical after you have explicitly waived such compensations.

Re: So what’s next (personal news from developer of popular CoreJS polyfill)

#120

Post by Dalewyn »

dools wrote: post #96
Dalewyn wrote: post #13

I wrote this sentiment earlier[1], but I'll repeat it here. If a dev wants money for his work, he should license his work as appropriate and demand payments. If a dev releases his work free-as-in-libre and/or free-as-in-beer, they don't get to complain if the donations are "insufficient". Or to put it another: Of course a company won't pay up if they don't have to. This guy seems to be considering making his work int…

The problem is that as soon as he turns this into a billable enterprise solution it will artificially inflate the price. He’s giving all the people who depend on this project a chance to get it at a discount.

So long as compensations are optional (note: donations are voluntary, aka optional), most users/companies are not going to give monies. That's just how society rolls, to say nothing of the professional business world subset.
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