Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

Post by college_physics » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

doubleg wrote: post #105

college_physics wrote: post #95

Clojure fans seem quite taken to hyperbole. If the language is such a "joy", "ultra-productive" etc I would have expected after such a long period of existence some major open source project to be showing off what the language attributes allow you to do. Happy to stand corrected if there is such a slam-dunk showcase that I've missed, I am actually interested to dig into clojure, if nothing else as a way to deepen my…

To name a few: https://github.com/xtdb/xtdb , https://github.com/nextjournal/clerk , https://github.com/penpot/penpot , https://github.com/metabase/metabase

Post by puredanger » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:40 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #84

eduction wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your pattern is right except for "its weird and undocumented" - I have found the maintainers are superb at docs - e.g. deps.edn - there is a "Guide" https://clojure.org/guides/deps_and_cli there is a "Getting Started" https://clojure.org/guides/getting_started (it's branded as an overall Clojure getting started but the core of deps is just the clj/clojure command line tool you would use to install clojure) th…

"Superb" is not the word for deps.edn documentation. It is certainly documented but the gap between most Clojure documentation and the deps.edn documentation page is big. I suspect Rich wrote most of it but left the deps.edn page to someone else.The deps pages have a knack for includng pages of waffle that doesn't help to solve the current problem. If a newbie is trying to debug {:deps {ring/ring-devel {:mvn/version…

Post by puredanger » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

billfruit wrote: post #22

dgb23 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> deps.edn Deps is well documented. The issue I personally found is that I needed to look at a bunch of OS project's deps.edn to see how people commonly structure things. Other than that it is a simple tool. > socket repl over nrepl I personally use Calva (VSCode) which just starts an nrepl based on deps.edn. When writing babashka scripts I start the repl manually and connect to it. Very pleasant experience so far. >…

Deps may be well documented, but lots of introductory material seems to use lein. Having two systems is more confusing.

Post by garbagecoder » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:46 PM UTC

adlpz wrote: post #74

kbuchanan wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bottom line with Clojure is it's not an ecosystem well-suited for non-veteran programmers. For as simple as the language is, effectively using Paredit, navigating partially documented libraries, diving into source code to see how things interact—it's tough as a new developer. I don't believe Clojure is overtly hostile to newcomers; it's just crafted by veterans, for veterans. And this is the result.

I don't agree. I consider myself something akin to a veteran. I've been coding for over two decades. Not sure if that qualifies, but anyway. My point is: it's been with experience that I've come to value ergonomics the most. And that for me includes having a thriving and focused ecosystem, extensive industry penetration, good and stable tooling, lots of well known codebases learn from, etc. It was when I was young an…

Post by garbagecoder » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:47 PM UTC

beders wrote: post #75

Lisp has ruined me forever. I'm not sure how I can go back to other languages. I basically started out with Allegro Common Lisp on Sparc's, went to Java because it was the shiny new thing, and then in 2017 finally took the plunge and have been addicted to Clojure ever since. Don't get me wrong: the learning curve can be steep, but the steepness - at least in my case - came from un-learning all the object-oriented stu…