Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 565 posts

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

#111

Post by Loughla »

nluken wrote: post #79

While I don't doubt that social media can drive some of these mental health issues, I think most teenagers are simply stressed from the constant work that's necessary for the college admissions process. I'm 24, so I would have been a teenager in 2012, but I didn't have a smartphone until I was 16 or so. My high school experience consisted almost entirely of school, studying, and running (my primary extracurricular).…

>I think most teenagers are simply stressed from the constant work that's necessary for the college admissions process.

I am 100% behind this, and a lot of my professional career has been spent in higher education, specifically working with college access programs for pre-college students.

The amount of pressure kids are under today is just astounding. When I was looking at colleges, the pressure started slightly in 10th or 11th grade. Now, it's in the grade schools. Colleges are trying to get into 6th grade classes to "offer services" (read: recruit those kids under the pretense of supplementing underfunded school classrooms).

This may come off as a "things were better in my day" but hear me out:

I played baseball starting in kindergarten. There were summer YMCA leagues, and a couple of kids played baseball on travel teams in junior high and high school. The really good ones got scouted in college, but 99% of us were in it because we liked the game and liked playing. No matter what our parents may have dreamed, we knew it was a fun way to be part of something we liked.

My oldest plays baseball, he started in kindergarten, and has played all the way to high school now. He loves the game, but we also made sure it was a game, not a job. All kids in his class who could afford it were on travel teams, starting in first grade. All but three have private coaches for whatever position they specialize in. . . starting in first grade. The parents sponsored tournaments. The parents made sure their travel team attended tournaments that college scouts or colleges sponsored. Starting in first grade. The kids on his school team (town population of around 1000, school k-12 enrollment is around 400) have literally played or practiced baseball every weekend, barring some holiday weekends, since they were 5 years old. That is not an exaggeration, it is a statement of fact.

I actually got cornered by other parents asking why out child (left handed) wasn't going to be on the travel team when they were little, because he'd be a great pitcher. In first grade. They were absolutely astounded that I said I just couldn't get behind putting that much pressure on a child.

I don't think that people over the age of about 32 understand just how unbelievable the pressure is on kids these days. They're expected to be ON all the time, and their future is at risk if they're not. Parents see it as just trying to set their kids up for the best future possible. But it's so much pressure.

It's astounding. I live in a poor, rural area. I have to imagine it's much worse in urban/affluent areas.

And that's not even touching on the fact that social media and technology means the students literally cannot get away from social issues and bullying. That's a whole other thing.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

#112

Post by jocaal »

ketzo wrote: post #59
amadeuspagel wrote: post #40

Social media is global, so any effects it has should be visible globally. > Teenage suicides rates have, on average, declined slightly over the past two decades or so. While in 1990 there were, on average across the OECD, 8.5 suicides per 100 000 teenagers (15-19), by 2015 this rate had fallen to 7.4. Much of this decline occurred during the 2000s. Between 1990 and 1999 the OECD average teenage suicide remained fairl…

Social media isn't totally global, though -- I would be interested to see this youth mental health data correlated with smartphone uptake in a given country.

For all intents and purposes, it is global. Facebook claims multiple billions of users and I myself am from a pretty isolated area and can say that social media definitley has a big presence here.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

#113

Post by magicalist »

carabiner wrote: post #90
nluken wrote: post #79

While I don't doubt that social media can drive some of these mental health issues, I think most teenagers are simply stressed from the constant work that's necessary for the college admissions process. I'm 24, so I would have been a teenager in 2012, but I didn't have a smartphone until I was 16 or so. My high school experience consisted almost entirely of school, studying, and running (my primary extracurricular).…

40% of high school students don't go to college (of any type). Of those, only a tiny portion are focused on elite universities. Many are just going to Long Beach State, University of Redlands and other 4 year schools that you've never heard of. They have lax admissions. Among adult Americans, only a third have bachelors degrees. Certainly the high pressure scholastic environment of certain high schools is not common.

> 40% of high school students don't go to college (of any type).

> Among adult Americans, only a third have bachelors degrees

So clearly things have been changing in recent decades. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this as a factor.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

#114

Post by kneebonian »

kayodelycaon wrote: post #43
willcipriano wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell someone with an issue with their physical condition that it is because of diet and lack of exercise and many would change habits, tell them it's due to a incurable but perhaps treatable cancer and some will chose suicide. Tell kids that they are unhappy due to choices made in day to day life and they might change those choices, tell them it's due to a incurable but maybe treatable issue with their brain and some…

That's not how this works. Having a reason for why you are struggling so badly is a relief. Your problem now has a name and it's not your fault. Having a name opens up a lot of support and treatment options. This gives you hope that your suffering isn't endless and infinite. You may not be able to be cured, but you can have a much better life.

I've found the opposite usually happens in my experience. It is easy to give into the temptation to then blame all problems on the condition, and start to abscond responsibility for your behavior. This leads to increasing feelings of helplessness, and not taking any actions that could help.

This ultimately results in you feeling miserable powerless and see no hope.

I think that the framing around this is very important. I had a teacher that constantly used the phrase "Don't let your reasons become excuses." Knowing there is an issue can bring relief and be helpful only if it empowers one to act.

An example I have seen in my life is two people that have anxiety, one started using it as a reason to avoid interacting with people, to avoid school, and to basically hide in her room and read books all the time, to the point they would have a breakdown when forced to talk to a grocery store clerk, her sibling had a similar struggle but forced themselves through it, to learn how to interact, to push themselves to be in difficult and uncomfortable situations, and eventually although still struggles with social anxiety presents a pretty passable facade of being able to function in society.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

#115

Post by faeriechangling »

strawpeople wrote: post #110
faeriechangling wrote: post #86

A lot of the stats cited are ultimately subjective assessments of things like mental health. Calling more people "bipolar" or "depressed" or "anxious" can just as easily be a change in language as to what those words mean, as easily as they can reflect a change in the underlying language and how people express things. Notably the definition of most mental illnesses in the country Haidt is pulling his data from change…

> we are seeing things like declines in lifespans and increases in suicide, but I don't think mental illness is increasingly nearly as much as the stats would lead you to believe at face value. This just seems like a flat out contradiction. How would suicides ‘skyrocket’ if mental illness is not increasing. Agreed that 2012 may be irrelevant and we may not know the cause.

It's not a contradiction, I'm saying that an underlying increase in mental illness plausibly explains some of the effect, but I'm unconvinced it explains the entire effect.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

#116

Post by narag »

vkk8 wrote: post #51

Anecdotally, I was (as probably many here were) ahead of the curve in digital devices usage when I started hanging out in IRC and various web forums as a teenager in early 2000s. At some point I noticed that just using computers induced some amount of anxiety compared to "old tech"; whenever there was some period of time when I used my computer less (like christmas, vacations, etc.) and joined back to the "world of t…

I have another hunch: that working as a programmer, and maybe with computers in general, is anxiety-inducing. As Campbell put it, computers are like old testament gods: lots of rules and no mercy.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

#117

Post by notinfuriated »

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #50
notch898a wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would offer the really flimsy statement most blacks in US are descendants of slaves, who were bred for generations to be optimized for unskilled labor that was given very little mental and health support which meant anyone slightly suicidal just killed themselves off. Slavery is pretty stressful. Society tends to want to ignore the fact the colonists and early Americans literally bred slaves under stressful conditi…

I think a more plausible theory is that white people feel more entitlement than black people, not because of some weird genetic memory thing but because they see other white people (or maybe even their parents or great-grandparents) enjoy much higher success than they are. Higher expectations = more pain from shitty circumstances = worse reactions.

This might be true, although I think it depends on the age group of the people committing suicide.

I forget where I heard this, but I believe a significant number of people committing suicide have a high correlation with other issues like chronic pain (e.g., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24916035/) or addiction. I'm suspicious that those white people have the kinds of problems you're referring to because I suspect their peers are less likely to be successful or affluent, as people with chronic pain issues probably are more working class, performing physical labor that results in their issues.

(Granted, I suppose there is probably a racial element that would account for why, if this is the case, more white people with chronic pain issues kill themselves vs. black people with chronic pain issues.)

This is obviously speculation, but so is your comment. I find both to be potentially likely. The scenario you came up with seems more likely for younger people (probably not experiencing chronic pain), and the scenario I came up with is potentially more likely for older people. But we're just spitballing some hypotheses here.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

#118

Post by gnramires »

vkk8 wrote: post #51

Anecdotally, I was (as probably many here were) ahead of the curve in digital devices usage when I started hanging out in IRC and various web forums as a teenager in early 2000s. At some point I noticed that just using computers induced some amount of anxiety compared to "old tech"; whenever there was some period of time when I used my computer less (like christmas, vacations, etc.) and joined back to the "world of t…

> Can you think of other activities that require this?

Well, reading books (and other documents). I also am suspicious of screens (and specially spending too much time on them... I'm certainly guilty), but the existence of books is somewhat confusing in this regard. However, I really don't think the population as a whole was reading quite as many books/documents as we today use digital devices or social media. That could be cutting into other things, like sun exposure, exercising, perhaps face-to-face social relationships, social support networks.

Something I've noticed since about that time as well is a growing unease and pessimism with our collective future (and even present!). Some things are bleak (like climate change, uncertainty with technologies, etc.), but there's a sense of little hope that definitely should have an impact on the youth. I remember the 90s as a quite hopeful time and that definitely had an impact on my mood. My personal contribution would be spreading more hope about life.

My favorite author w.r.t. this right now that I recommend is Jane Goodall:

https://bookwyrm.social/book/391141/s/the-book-of-hope

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

#119

Post by e40 »

nluken wrote: post #79

While I don't doubt that social media can drive some of these mental health issues, I think most teenagers are simply stressed from the constant work that's necessary for the college admissions process. I'm 24, so I would have been a teenager in 2012, but I didn't have a smartphone until I was 16 or so. My high school experience consisted almost entirely of school, studying, and running (my primary extracurricular).…

And the deteriorating job market when they get out. My son has struggled/struggles with this. I 100% understand and I would, too, if I were in his position. I compare his situation to mine and they are night and day. The prevailing sentiment when I was in college: get a degree (in anything) and you'll be OK if you want to work hard.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic began around 2012

#120

Post by mrj »

faeriechangling wrote: post #102
arp242 wrote: post #2

Another possible explanation is that we are simply diagnosing these kind of mental health issues better – due to decrease in stigmatization and/or more attention to it – but that our treatment is worse than doing nothing, and is leading to higher rates of self-harm and suicide. I have no idea if that's the case – and if it is a factor at all it probably doesn't account for all of it – but it seems something worth exp…

Why is more diagnosis better diagnosis? I hear this constantly, literally every time people point out we might be calling people mentally ill now that we wouldn't have called mentally ill 20 years ago people go "wow we must be diagnosing people better". To me better diagnosis would be reflected in things like the suicide rate dropping, drug abuse falling, general health metrics improving, and so on, not in simply inc…

True, of course labeling is only the first step before treatment. Maybe the root cause of the rise is then we are telling kids they're depressed and we have relatively ineffective treatments for it.

Labelling wouldn't be a problem if we could actually help everybody with the diagnosis, but they're too often stuck with a "ehh. maybe this pill" approach.

Post reply on HN