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Stop developing this technology

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Re: Stop developing this technology

#111
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we agree that “someone would have done this anyway” is a poor justification for one’s actions? That’s what you say when you 1) recognize that you did a bad thing, but 2) don’t want to be blamed for it.

I actually don't agree with this. Assume that the following premises are true: * action x is legal, but results in a worse world for everyone. * doing action x benefits the first 1000 people who do it. * much more than 1000 are capable of doing x, including me. * if I do it now, I will be one of the first 1000. If these are true, I think one should do action x. I believe one would be completely justified in doing it.

Basically prisoner's dilemma.

I think the answer is inherent to the question of whether it's "justified", and the fact that you're being downvoted.

If Prisoner's Dilemma is played once, the optimal strategy is to defect. If it's repeated an unknown number of times, the optimal strategy is tit-for-tat.

Now, if you're an identifiable actor in a pool of tit-for-tat-players, and you have a history of defecting first, you're going to face opponents who normally play tit-for-tat start to defect against you first, too. In the end, you will end up as one of the worst peformers in the player pool.

So when you're asking if it is "justifiable" to defect in a game like this, it is the same as asking "will I be treated worse if I defect in this game". The downvote confirms this, I think. It means that in this population pool, bad behavior is punished (or people pretend it is)

Now, if defecting can either be done secretly or if you're in a popluation pool where everyone defects anyway, then always-defect is probably the nash equillibrium. In that case, defecting will be seen as justifiable.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#112
post #92

There's a book in Dutch literature, The Assault by Harry Mulisch. It's a great read if you're interested in multi-faceted morality. It deals with guilt and responsibility when there's a chain of things that need to happen for a bad outcome. During WWII the protagonist's parents are shot by Germans after a body of a collaborator was found in front of their house. The parents were arguing with the soldiers about someth…

I think the appropriate way to understand blame and guilt is as social technologies. Who is responsible for some event depends on perspective. Any actor should assign blame, guilt and responsibility in a way that leads to preferred outcomes in the future, e.g. by selecting other agents to collaborate with, communicating rules or contracts and enforcing incentives. Different actors may assign blame differently and there need not always be an objectively correct assignment.

For example, in the story above, the argument against the Germans being to blame would be that the protagonist has no agency with respect to them being there and shooting people. The counter argument "He who did it, did it, and not somebody else" is shifting perspective from the protagonist to society, which does have agency with respect to the Germans shooting people.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#113
post #79
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s simply that it’s a kids/teen level argument. “But they did it too!” Not a lot of thought went into it, is what it usually tells me.

This "kid level" argument fooled even Albert Einstein, Roosevelt, and many others. into developing atomic bomb. "If we don't build it Nazis will" Using it was achieved by different kid level argument "It will prevent even more death and suffering"

The difference is that a lot more thought went into it. Not only that, the presidents domain of expertise and distinction/authority is about these issues. You way down your options, you navigate a complex issue with many factors involved. To prevent more death and suffering was indeed what was one of the most contributing factors of Roosevelts decisions (also to use it, as a direct assault on Japan would have cost a factor more in lives and suffering for both Japan the US)

The difference is of course a well thought out weighing of options, to feel into the issue and make your choice. Taking my immediate surroundings, a lot of people don’t engage in that level of philosophy. Knee jerk reactions are still very common in our species.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#114

This kind of technology is far too useful to repressive regimes and those who wish to do nasty things with it. This means that the incentive to develop this technology is already there, and so it WILL be developed no matter how much people wish it wouldn't. The only difference at this point is whether some of the implementations are developed in public view or not. If none are public, then all of them will be done in…

> it WILL be developed no matter how much people wish it wouldn't.

Sure, but there's a value in delaying that development. Delaying harm is a valid tactic.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#115

Regardless of what I think about this technology in particular, I want to respond to this line from the second comment: [1] > on the contrary, it must be developed. No, it mustn’t. There’s not a gun to your head, forcing you to do this. You want to develop this technology. That’s why it’s happening. Technology isn’t inevitable. It’s a choice we make. And we can go in circles about whether it’s good or bad, but at lea…

As you can't enforce stopping development of it, it is better to also develop it to understand it better and create countermeasures like ml which detects deepfakes.

This also leads potentially to more or better image/video signing Technologie.

And yes just because someone develops this in the open doesn't mean that someone else is not developing it in parallel but hidden.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#117

Regardless of what I think about this technology in particular, I want to respond to this line from the second comment: [1] > on the contrary, it must be developed. No, it mustn’t. There’s not a gun to your head, forcing you to do this. You want to develop this technology. That’s why it’s happening. Technology isn’t inevitable. It’s a choice we make. And we can go in circles about whether it’s good or bad, but at lea…

> No, it mustn’t.

Let's imagine you have a horrific face malformation, or went through a terrible accident that left you disfigured. Why not allow you to pass for an ordinary person, at least in video calls, so you can have a somewhat normal life?

It took me two minutes to come up with a legitimate use for this technology. I imagine there are many more only a couple minutes away.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#118
post #6

I think it's a good thing. Not that it's being used for evil things, but because it should help make it obvious that you can't trust anything you see on a screen. Using fake media to trick people into believing anything used to be a privileged reserved for nation states and the ultra rich. Now that _ANYONE_ and their cat can do it, it should follow that nobody can believe anything that's on a screen anymore (this com…

> but because it should help make it obvious that you can't trust anything you see on a screen.

I think this in general (text, audio, video) will produce a societal earthquake, in a way send us into the Middle Ages - you can't really verify things yourself, because everything can be faked, all you can do is anchoring yourself to some trusted authority.

Imagine you read on hacker news an (AI generated) article about a new breakthrough in physics - new convincing evidence for the cyclical universe hypothesis. In the discussion, there will be a lot of seemingly informed comments arguing about this (all AI generated), links to video presentations from reputable scientists (all AI generated) and papers (all AI generated). It will be all wrong (= there wasn't any breakthrough in the first place), but impossible for a non-physicist to assess correctly.

In a way it will lead to centralization of internet and knowledge, people will stick only to their trusted sources. For some it may be Wikipedia and NYTimes, for others some AI-generated island of knowledge/manipulation.

I also wonder what effects this will have on social platforms when 99% of content is generated by AI.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#119
post #104
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about producing or consuming deepfakes suggests bad faith. You might not like the art, but deepfakes are not harmful.

We've not had the test case, but in places where nonconsensual or "revenge" porn is criminalized, deepfakes may well turn out to be illegal. They're certainly distressing for the victim.

It's already illegal for a person to pretend to be another real person without their consent.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#120
post #18

Regardless of what I think about this technology in particular, I want to respond to this line from the second comment: [1] > on the contrary, it must be developed. No, it mustn’t. There’s not a gun to your head, forcing you to do this. You want to develop this technology. That’s why it’s happening. Technology isn’t inevitable. It’s a choice we make. And we can go in circles about whether it’s good or bad, but at lea…

From the main page: “Communication groups [...] • mrdeepfakes - the biggest NSFW English deepfake community”, which strains my assumption of good faith debate regarding their ethics.

> strains my assumption of good faith debate regarding their ethics.

Let's flip the argument upside down. Let's imagine you want to produce porn content, but don't want to be recognized. This technology allows that.

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