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“Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

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Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#111

Post by danielfoster »

idopmstuff wrote: post #56
tarr11 wrote: post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

I think the problem with this strategy is that it causes the wrong people to leave. If you're a top performer, you're going to feel like a 10% pay cut is very unfair, and you're going to be able to get another job elsewhere fairly easily, even in this environment. If you're not performing particularly well, it probably doesn't feel as unreasonable, and even if you don't like it, it's tough to leave. When done correct…

I agreed. The example given, a very specialized manufacturer, does not represent the tech industry. Probably these employees recognized it would be difficult to be hired elsewhere and this is why they were so willing to put up with a 10% pay cut.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#112

Post by in_cahoots »

msbarnett wrote: post #97
idopmstuff wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with this strategy is that it causes the wrong people to leave. If you're a top performer, you're going to feel like a 10% pay cut is very unfair, and you're going to be able to get another job elsewhere fairly easily, even in this environment. If you're not performing particularly well, it probably doesn't feel as unreasonable, and even if you don't like it, it's tough to leave. When done correct…

If you’re a top performer you bail as soon as there are layoffs anyways. I certainly do. It’s rarely a sign that anything good is in your future, they’re often performed poorly, and the work environment post-layoffs is incredibly bleak and disheartening. If you have options there’s no good reason to stay.

Where would you go in this environment? Most of the top-name companies have had layoffs themselves, or at the very least are at the hiring freeze stage of the layoff routine.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#113

Post by hinkley »

oxfordmale wrote: post #75
btown wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market shifting to profitability over growth was the motive, absolutely. But Elon's decimation of Twitter was the means and opportunity. And I think that copycatting those means of executing layoffs - 7am email notifications for 20-year employees, minimal consultation with lower-level management about who should be retained - will have significant ramifications on the morale of the remaining workforce. Perhaps so…

The layoffs without consultation with the lower levels will indeed leave a bitter taste. It gives the impression that hard work isn't awarded if the top management level has no visibility over your work. This will result in departments spending much more time selling their work, rather than actually doing the work. In the end, this is counterproductive for a company.

If you’ve never been in a layoff where you lost someone you trust as much as you trust yourself, it’s a terrible experience that may come to define your time at the company. If they can lay “Dave” off they can lay any of us off. What if I’m next? Or god what if you’re next? I do not want your job and they’ll make me do it if you’re gone. I have to be very careful in meetings now, save 95% of my political capital for self preservation, not team benefit. Not company benefit.

You might have a few people who double down and say if this isn’t working we have to try something radically different. But Cassandra is often in the first round of layoffs. Nobody wants to listen to people second guess them so you’re out first. After that, no more ideological fights get won from that point forward. The entire team is in free fall, just trying to do enough to look good and hoping the market corrects before the wheels come off.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#114

Post by TrainedMonkey »

idopmstuff wrote: post #56
tarr11 wrote: post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

I think the problem with this strategy is that it causes the wrong people to leave. If you're a top performer, you're going to feel like a 10% pay cut is very unfair, and you're going to be able to get another job elsewhere fairly easily, even in this environment. If you're not performing particularly well, it probably doesn't feel as unreasonable, and even if you don't like it, it's tough to leave. When done correct…

This ignores the morale. I've been in both situations and the pay cut definitely felt like "we're in this rough economic situation together". Compare this with a layoff where I made my peace while waiting for "you still have a job email" and started interviewing shortly after. Of course pay cuts always ignore shareholders as they are really getting the benefit of paying less for same number of people.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#115

Post by naveen99 »

msbarnett wrote: post #97
idopmstuff wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with this strategy is that it causes the wrong people to leave. If you're a top performer, you're going to feel like a 10% pay cut is very unfair, and you're going to be able to get another job elsewhere fairly easily, even in this environment. If you're not performing particularly well, it probably doesn't feel as unreasonable, and even if you don't like it, it's tough to leave. When done correct…

If you’re a top performer you bail as soon as there are layoffs anyways. I certainly do. It’s rarely a sign that anything good is in your future, they’re often performed poorly, and the work environment post-layoffs is incredibly bleak and disheartening. If you have options there’s no good reason to stay.

Not if you are at a top company. Also it’s not like any company gets to cut 10% from what it offers new hires… it’s hard enough recruiting at market rates, will be harder 10% below market rates.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#116

Post by notfromhere »

auggierose wrote: post #6
pookeh wrote: post #3

I always wondered if high profile CEOs and shareholders know something substantial of the upcoming future that us leaf nodes are just clueless about. Is it just copy cat or deep info for privileged clubs?

> Everybody else is doing it, why aren’t we? Pretty much just that. This is how big companies decide most things, not only layoffs.

CEOs are just managers, not philosophers. People thinking they're all knowing demigods is just marketing to try and justify those extremely high salaries. They're no different than your average person.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#117

Post by wpietri »

MiscIdeaMaker99 wrote: post #37
wpietri wrote: post #4

I love this point: "The tech industry layoffs are basically an instance of social contagion, in which companies imitate what others are doing." I really wish for a less supine tech press. I've not seen any of these titans of industry being held accountable for the apparent major mistakes of overhiring. And I'm not even talking actual consequences here; these people will surely get bonuses for this. I'd just like to s…

I would love to see the capitalists held accountable for the way they treat their workers, but I believe their decisions are primarily dictated by profits, regardless of what they say. Hard questions can surely be asked, but once you weed through all of the empty narrative, you pretty much end up with the reason: extracting profits.

Even there, I think there can be usefully hard questions. Because I suspect what the CEOs are focused on is not the long-term profits that come from building healthy companies, but the short-term profits that come from juicing the numbers in ways that look good to the market on a day-to-day basis.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#118

Post by jurassic »

btown wrote: post #41
di456 wrote: post #7

This misses the main driver. Valuations are no longer based on growth. The entire market has shifted to profitability over growth. Companies with a stronger balance sheet coming out of the recession will be better positioned for the long term. Seems that companies that gained their valuations through growth weren't sustainable in the long run. And at a macro level, economic policy has largely deferred recessions sinc…

The market shifting to profitability over growth was the motive, absolutely. But Elon's decimation of Twitter was the means and opportunity. And I think that copycatting those means of executing layoffs - 7am email notifications for 20-year employees, minimal consultation with lower-level management about who should be retained - will have significant ramifications on the morale of the remaining workforce. Perhaps so…

I can't wait for Elon's Twitter to fully crater so brainless Wall Street people will stop trying to emulate his approach to cost reduction. It's obvious to everyone paying attention that Elon destroyed that company in the first 30 days and it's only a matter of time until bankruptcy. It blows my mind that anybody could see his approach as an example to emulate.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#119

Post by escapecharacter »

in_cahoots wrote: post #112
msbarnett wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re a top performer you bail as soon as there are layoffs anyways. I certainly do. It’s rarely a sign that anything good is in your future, they’re often performed poorly, and the work environment post-layoffs is incredibly bleak and disheartening. If you have options there’s no good reason to stay.

Where would you go in this environment? Most of the top-name companies have had layoffs themselves, or at the very least are at the hiring freeze stage of the layoff routine.

In my case, I did the math on my savings and I’m taking 1-3 years working on side projects, by myself and with groups of collaborators

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#120

Post by notfromhere »

revlolz wrote: post #33

Deleting the post, I no longer wish to discuss this.

Google printed like $75B in net income, are we going to pretend that they need to do layoffs in order to stay profitable?

Google isn't some startup that needs to bump metrics in order to survive until their next tranche.

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