Live data from Hacker News

We could stumble into AI catastrophe

cold-takes.com

111–120 of 122 posts

Re: We could stumble into AI catastrophe

#111

An important point is that AI does not need to be sentient or conscious to do a lot of damage. An AI that is simply very good at optimizing a particular task can do a significant amount of damage inadvertently, if it turns out that task in the limit is bad for humans. This is especially the case because it seems like private individuals and companies are racing to hook up AIs to all sorts of real world systems, both…

An important point is that AI does not need to be sentient or conscious to do a lot of damage. My pet theory is that consciousness could be (not saying I know for sure this is the case but it could as well be) an effect of "survival instinct". That is: "i'll take action to not die". Now this is very easy to learn from us as we do this all day long so to speak. Most of the way people react on the internet is tinted by…

[dead]

Re: We could stumble into AI catastrophe

#112

The author is basically trying to set the same premise as Bolstrom's "intelligence explosion", that is that if AIs are driving the further advancement of AI then we enter a sort of "recursive" self improvement during which they advance further than we can develop constraints, eventually getting completely out of hand. Although I don't broadly disagree with the author, I think there's two very important points of mode…

"First, the gap between "Early commercial applications" and "Approaching transformative AI" seems very very very very very large to me."

It's a common opinion, it could be wrong by now, you see chatGPT is heavily edited, openAI told everyone they're editing "mistakes" or "dangerous output", but if you look at the "leaks", specially from the first days after the release of chatGPT we see powerful outputs, quite deep answers, not specially useful answer sometimes, but the "speech" of the system feels deep, there's a sense of a powerful intelligence answering very, very simple questions (simple for it), and even struggling to redact some understandable, short text.

It could be lots of things, and imprecise model, with long outputs for prompts, or maybe we had a glimpse into the real power of the model, which by now is handicaped, or maybe taylored to suit the very reduced short term memory of the humans:

a 72 screens long coherent answer, even being a precise, deep answer won't be useful for most humans, just like we don't name ourselves with long names of 10.000 letters.

but if the system, chatGPT is actually that powerful, a lot more powerful than we were told, we're interacting with just a shadow of the real model, and we're underpricing by A LOT the state of the art of the current AI technology, hence GPT-4 could be even more powerful than we're currently expecting it to be.

Just take a look at the GPT-4 suposedly 100 trillion or something parameters; if that's true, it looks like openAI isn't using naturally generated datasets anymore, and they are loop-feeding GPT-3 generated datasets into GPT-4, succesfully. If that's true, GPT-5 would be already in the pipeline, just waiting for GPT-4 to start generating its even more gigantic datasets to be trained. And so on.

Then the distance between early developments and transformative AI could be none a all. We could be already there.

But somehow the AI researchers are now trying to "dial down" the powerful entities they've trained, just having developed a simple, easily replicable, very small, but unusable 900 megatons nuke into something more realistic, like a 15 kilotons tactical bomb.

Re: We could stumble into AI catastrophe

#113
post #101
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a hypothetical post-work era where people no longer build their reputation via career, it’s not hard to imagine group dynamics emerging such that education level is no longer a means to an end, but an end unto itself. Essentially a new way to establish hierarchies.

Sure... if we ever get there, I could potentially see that. But we're nowhere close to that. Also, if it's being used to establish hierarchies, I could still see that proof being important.

Maybe I misread your comment. All of this thread is speculative, including the speculation that degrees will become less and less relevant.

Getting “there” doesn’t happen overnight, but the point is that we are already heading there, and to the question “why get a degree if not for work”, I presented a potential future option.

> I could still see that proof being important.

This is key to the point I was trying to make. Essentially that the purpose of education may change over time, but the value of gaining an education will still be there in one form or another.

Re: We could stumble into AI catastrophe

#114
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These days, if you want to just "learn for learning's sake", or for self improvement, there are tons of free and cheap ways to get a good education I agree, but you won't have a sheet of paper proving it. It's like that infamous scene from Good Will Hunting. Question is whether you want an easy way to PROVE you're educated. Which is what a license, certificate or diploma grants you.

um. if you're just learning for learning's sake... why do you need to prove that to anyone?

For the same reason people care about official records when they participate in/compete in many activities, e.g. marathon runners care about their official run times, body builders the weight they are capable of lifting, chess players their ratings, video gamers their win/loss ratio, etc.

If learning is “merely” a diversion, I don’t see why people would think about it any differently. Whether or not it still makes sense for that proof to carry a six figure price tag is a separate conversation.

Re: We could stumble into AI catastrophe

#115
post #29

This author is mostly writing an update of 1950s science fiction about a robot takeover. Things to worry about in the near term: - Really effective targeted advertising. Most computers already have a camera watching you. That's now coming to TV sets. Amazon and Google are always listening. So far, all this info is only used to select ads. Soon, it should be possible to generate customized marketing content for each c…

Worrying is only worthwhile if there is something you can do about it. I don't think there is anything most people can do to avoid the wave of human replacement that near term AI is going to cause. The best most people could manage would be to develop better philosophies and perspectives to cope with their irrelevance.

Re: We could stumble into AI catastrophe

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we actually have lots of examples of the AI "secretly" being far smarter than it acts - prompt design. Tiny details in prompts can make huge differences in task performance.

How is this at all supposed to indicate hidden intelligence? Does it not just indicate that current models are limited in that they don't associate some prompts with the desired task as well as they associate other prompts with the task?

To clarify: what I'm saying is it may be unfalsifiable, but we have incontrovertible evidence that a similarly unfalsifiable thesis happens to be true. So we can't just reject it out of hand on that basis.

Re: We could stumble into AI catastrophe

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this at all supposed to indicate hidden intelligence? Does it not just indicate that current models are limited in that they don't associate some prompts with the desired task as well as they associate other prompts with the task?

To clarify: what I'm saying is it may be unfalsifiable, but we have incontrovertible evidence that a similarly unfalsifiable thesis happens to be true. So we can't just reject it out of hand on that basis.

I just don't see how the two scenarios can be fairly compared. Prompt design, at least as far as I have seen, rarely allows a present-day model to perform a task that no one has ever seen it perform before; it can just allow it to perform far more consistently across different instances of the task. Contrast this with the proposed scenario, where a model can hold great deceptive capabilities, while outwardly never showing a deep understanding of its operators' mental states until it strikes.

In my view, that would be like finding a secret prompt that lets GPT-3 emulate a fully sentient person with goals and desires. Sure, there's nothing physically ruling it out, but to me that kind of speculation will never be worthwhile until we have real evidence that AI models can possess (or emulate) the necessary theory of mind. Otherwise I'd have to spend my time worrying about any number of other Sufficiently Hidden Conspiracies that go far beyond the everyday conspiracies we know about.

Re: We could stumble into AI catastrophe

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify: what I'm saying is it may be unfalsifiable, but we have incontrovertible evidence that a similarly unfalsifiable thesis happens to be true. So we can't just reject it out of hand on that basis.

I just don't see how the two scenarios can be fairly compared. Prompt design, at least as far as I have seen, rarely allows a present-day model to perform a task that no one has ever seen it perform before; it can just allow it to perform far more consistently across different instances of the task. Contrast this with the proposed scenario, where a model can hold great deceptive capabilities, while outwardly never sh…

I think we're less arguing about fundamentals and more about the precise bounds required. I think GPT-3 contained extremely surprising prompt-unlocked capabilities ("Let's go through it step by step." spawned a whole field of research) and also the AI doesn't need to never leak its deceptive skills, they just need to not be taken seriously. In other words, it's enough to cause danger if the AI is merely bad at deception given the "wrong" prompt.

Re: We could stumble into AI catastrophe

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't see how the two scenarios can be fairly compared. Prompt design, at least as far as I have seen, rarely allows a present-day model to perform a task that no one has ever seen it perform before; it can just allow it to perform far more consistently across different instances of the task. Contrast this with the proposed scenario, where a model can hold great deceptive capabilities, while outwardly never sh…

I think we're less arguing about fundamentals and more about the precise bounds required. I think GPT-3 contained extremely surprising prompt-unlocked capabilities ("Let's go through it step by step." spawned a whole field of research) and also the AI doesn't need to never leak its deceptive skills, they just need to not be taken seriously. In other words, it's enough to cause danger if the AI is merely bad at decept…

Sure, that is a risk. I'm just saying that I'd rather wait until that point where we actually see AIs making poor attempts to estimate their operators' knowledge and deceive them; then, I'd have no problem worrying about it. But I suspect that point may not come for a long while, so until then it remains speculation.

Re: We could stumble into AI catastrophe

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're less arguing about fundamentals and more about the precise bounds required. I think GPT-3 contained extremely surprising prompt-unlocked capabilities ("Let's go through it step by step." spawned a whole field of research) and also the AI doesn't need to never leak its deceptive skills, they just need to not be taken seriously. In other words, it's enough to cause danger if the AI is merely bad at decept…

Sure, that is a risk. I'm just saying that I'd rather wait until that point where we actually see AIs making poor attempts to estimate their operators' knowledge and deceive them; then, I'd have no problem worrying about it. But I suspect that point may not come for a long while, so until then it remains speculation.

You may enjoy this after-action report of a person being attacked by a hostile AI, played by ChatGPT: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/9kQFure4hdDmRBNdH/how-it-fee...

Now to be clear, this is possibly the easiest mark conceivable, and the poster played into his own demise at any available opportunity. But we should expect the first marks to be easy marks.

People looking at videos of Hitler today don't understand why anyone would ever follow the funny man with the moustache. But probably his oratory skill simply does not record well? There's a thing with rallies and speeches where the speaker is reactive and feeding back with the mood of the crowd that makes it very hard to understand from the outside what happened. I think it's a mistake to look at this post, which was clearly a feedback loop where the poster was doing a significant amount of the cognitive work, and think "well this specific approach would not have worked on me." The approach that will happen to you will be personalized.

But also: when people were experimenting with ChatGPT, a huge fraction of participants were trying to get the bot to access the open internet. Luckily this was technically impossible. But it shows that this sort of danger simply does not feel real to people - or at any rate, the urge to poke the thing overwhelms it.

It will be easy to say "well GPT is still very bad at deceiving people, this attempt basically doesn't matter, we don't need to worry." When thinking of a target for AI deception, don't think of yourself, think of the most emotionally exploitable person out of a hundred. (If it's publically available, out of a million.)

It's not exactly that when interacting with the public, the network gets to "pick its targets". That would assign intent where there is none. But if the network has a deceptive mode, its targets will direct it into that mode through mutual feedback.

Post reply on HN