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Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

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Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#111

Post by enkid »

marcosdumay wrote: post #81
enkid wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proven oil reserves have steadily increased for the last decade, even as consumption has increased. This means that we are discovering oil faster than we are burning it. The Earth obviously can't have infinite oil, but we don't know how long until we run out, and it's likely well over fifty years from now.

> This means that we are discovering oil faster than we are burning it. Nope. All this means is that oil is getting more expensive.

I don't understand. Can you explain?

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#112

Post by davewritescode »

driverdan wrote: post #12

It sounds like they ran it on straight ethanol. This isn't new or news. Many production cars can run on straight E in good weather. The mileage claim doesn't make sense though because ethanol is less energy dense than gasoline. It'd be nice if this blogspam linked to the source so we could verify details.

Believe it or not most passenger cars won’t run on ethanol unmodified these days. Even running on 50 or 80% ethanol blends usually requires custom ECU maps to run.

Let’s not even talk about all the things in the fuel system that seem to have a shorter life with ethanol involved, particularly injectors.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#113

Post by whycome »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #72
xnzakg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention leaded fuel still being a thing in aviation

Not anymore. You need to update your talking points. The FAA got off their butts and approved the unloaded substitute in 2022 and it's starting to roll out. Airports want it ASAP because the (IIRC) ~20% higher cost is a cheap price to pay to not have to listen to people complain.

You haven’t refuted anything. It’s still a thing.

“On February 23, 2022, the FAA joined aviation and petroleum industry stakeholders to announce a comprehensive public-private partnership to transition to lead-free aviation fuels for piston-engine aircraft by the end of 2030.”

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/avgas

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#114

Post by Retric »

jodrellblank wrote: post #100
Retric wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An average EV averages far less power than an average 2kW space heater over time. A 2kW space heater used just 12 hours a day uses the same power per day as 4 mile per kWh EV driven 35,000 miles per year. Many space heaters see more than 12h/day of use but 35k miles per year is extremely rare. EV’s are like microwaves, they use a lot of power when on but the grid cares about average load across millions of them not w…

> “ as a 4kWh/mile EV ” “The battery size for a Tesla Model 3 ranges from 50 kWh to 82 kWh” that would give the largest a range of 20 miles. Ev-database.org says they use 151Wh/km which is about 240Wh/mile.

Just a typo. A reasonably efficient EV is 240Wh/mile or ~4 miles per kWh.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#115

Post by rainsford »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #83
marcosdumay wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, you mean some non-zero investment is required? What change doesn't require investment? In all likelihood, gasoline transportation costs an order of magnitude more than electricity. And that's not just infrastructure that is already paid for. There is a much larger maintenance cost, an ongoing labor cost, and a much shorter useful life for anything related to fossil fuels.

>In all likelihood, gasoline transportation costs an order of magnitude more than electricity. This statement just doesn't pass even the most lax economic sanity check. Why don't all the use cases where people don't care about anything other than the bottom dollar and don't run up against the weaknesses of modern batteries already run electric vehicles. I'm thinking like low daily mileage fleet of small vehicles in a…

Because vehicles are expensive and people don't replace them all that often? Affordable, capable EVs are relatively new and being competitive with gasoline vehicles doesn't necessarily mean they're so competitive that it makes sense to prematurely replace a working gas powered vehicle.

Longer term though, EVs replacing gasoline vehicles for those kind of use-cases is exactly what we're going to see. In the US, the postal service intends to start deploying tens of thousands of EVs over the next few years as they replace older gasoline powered delivery vehicles. The economics do apparently work out and pass the sanity check, just not overnight.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#116

Post by mmoskal »

delecti wrote: post #87
brk wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the crypto mining dying off should free up a lot of grid resources for EVs. I've heard the "grid can't handle all EVs" statement, but have not seen anything backing up the claim. I believe the grid can in fact handle EVs becoming prevalent. We might need more power generation , which could be new plants, and/or residential solar. Baring some kind of crazy legislation requiring ICE vehicles to be crushed or perman…

The global energy usage from crypto was in the ballpark of 120-240 TWh/year, but a couple figures repeated the specific 150 TWh/year figure, so I'll use that. The US's annual gasoline consumption is 135 bn gallons (2021 figure). At around 20 mpg (random estimate because I have to pick something), that works out to 2.7 trillion miles. At 30 kWh/100mi (figure from google), that works out 800 TWh if every gas vehicle in…

Interesting to note that there is ~30kWh of energy in a gallon of gasoline, so the reason EV would only take 20% of US electricity consumption is that they are 5x more efficient (than the 20mpg gas figure used).

Indeed seems manageable.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#117

Post by themitigating »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #31
PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

Yes, and: the question revolves around total financial and material capital needed to transition away from fossil fuels. Synthetic fuels are potentially valuable because they allow existing capital assets (internal combustion engines and the industry that produces them, fuel distribution infrastructure) to continue to be used. I am glad to see research into them continue- it's difficult to predict what will scale wel…

Synthetic fuels are potentially valuable because they allow existing capital assets (internal combustion engines and the industry that produces them, fuel distribution infrastructure) to continue to be used.

Won't engines have to be modified and reprogrammed?

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#118

Post by phpisthebest »

megaman821 wrote: post #101
delecti wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The global energy usage from crypto was in the ballpark of 120-240 TWh/year, but a couple figures repeated the specific 150 TWh/year figure, so I'll use that. The US's annual gasoline consumption is 135 bn gallons (2021 figure). At around 20 mpg (random estimate because I have to pick something), that works out to 2.7 trillion miles. At 30 kWh/100mi (figure from google), that works out 800 TWh if every gas vehicle in…

If it is only 20% more generation, that seems pretty feasible. The widespread usage of air conditioners caused a greater increase in electricity usage than that.

As more and more people switch to Electric Heat (heat pumps i.e AC run backwards) off of NatGas more and more energy companies are pleading with people to turn down their heat in the winter and up in the summer as the grid can not handle it

For the first time I can remember, my power company was sending out Texts here in the midwest during that last Arctic blast telling people to use less electricity because the grid was over taxed.

Our National Energy grid is very very fragile.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#119

Post by themitigating »

mfer wrote: post #51
i_am_proteus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and: the question revolves around total financial and material capital needed to transition away from fossil fuels. Synthetic fuels are potentially valuable because they allow existing capital assets (internal combustion engines and the industry that produces them, fuel distribution infrastructure) to continue to be used. I am glad to see research into them continue- it's difficult to predict what will scale wel…

The cost to transition away from fossil fuels isn’t really talked about much. For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

"For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars"

I bet you the electrical grid couldn't handle everyone having an air conditioner in Texas in the 1920s but slowly people installed window and later central ACs and the grid grew.

The situation where everyone suddenly had an electric car is implausible

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#120

Post by dieselgate »

This is a cool data point but I personally wouldn't call 45 mpg "staggering" - it's definitely good but not unprecedented by any means, many TDIs or smaller gas engines can get that on the freeway. The research into synthetic gasoline fuels is inspiring but at a certain point seem impractical and too-little-too-late. There are already well established "alternative" fueling technologies that are very easily accessible and likely cheaper.
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